Discussion: Japan at war in -39

CalBear

Moderator
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The Japanese were far weaker in 1939 than in 1941. The IJNAS benefited greatly from the rapid changes in aircraft design and technology that swept the industry in the early war years, with the A6M reaching service at exactly the right time to be a significant force (the IJAAS benefited, although not as significantly, from the introduction of the Ki-43 in the same time frame).

In 1939 the Japanese are just introducing the Ki-27 and A5M, neither of which is qualitatively superior to the Allied aircraft they would face, and the other Japanese fighter, the A4N and Ki-10 are markedly inferior to the newest Western designs (a Spitfire, Hurricane, or Curtiss Hawk would chop any of these Japanese designs to pieces, and even the Gauntlet and Gladiator were more than a match for the A4N and Ki-10).

The Japanese were never that much of a match on the ground for the Western Armies in a set piece, even fight. They benefited greatly from managing a surprise assault against mainly colonial forces that were ill prepared and trained that was conducted by Japanese troops who were combat veterans. This massive advantage (there is simply no replacement for actual battle experience in preparing troops) does not exist in this scenario since the IJA has not been engaged in what was by 1941 better than five years of constant combat.

There is also the not inconsiderable matter of operational distance. The Japanese had bases in French Indochina to stage their attacks against Malaya and the DEI, as well as significant forces in China and on Hanan to act as logistical bases to support the move into the Southern Resource Area. In this scenario the closest Japanese support base is in the Palaus or the Mandates, with most forces having to come from Formosa or the Home Islands. The Japanese were NOT well equipped to operate at long range from logistical support.

Any IJN movement toward the Southern Resource Area would also undoubted be observed by U.S. forces operating out of the PI and Guam. While it is extremely unlikely that the U.S. would engage the Japanese, it is also close it ASB to imagine that the Americans wouldn't pick up the phone and call the British Embassy to have a quiet chat.

Overall the Japanese would be in a gravely disadvantageous situation, operating far from home, with long, extremely vulnerable supply lines, against well supplied and equally well prepared European forces that would not be surprised and would not be at the short end of the technological teeter-totter.

Lastly (and perhaps most critically) there would be absolutely no reason for the Japanese to attack the Europeans in this scenario. If they are not engaged in China, or occupying French Indochina the United States has not frozen their dollar assets, cut off oil and metal imports, or done anything else that forced the Japanese into their desperate lunge south. Without the war in China the IJA and IJN are also not in any burning need for supplies.

Simply put, without the war against China, the Japanese have utterly no reason to engage in any aggression of any kind.
 

John Farson

Banned
The Japanese were far weaker in 1939 than in 1941. The IJNAS benefited greatly from the rapid changes in aircraft design and technology that swept the industry in the early war years, with the A6M reaching service at exactly the right time to be a significant force (the IJAAS benefited, although not as significantly, from the introduction of the Ki-43 in the same time frame).

In 1939 the Japanese are just introducing the Ki-27 and A5M, neither of which is qualitatively superior to the Allied aircraft they would face, and the other Japanese fighter, the A4N and Ki-10 are markedly inferior to the newest Western designs (a Spitfire, Hurricane, or Curtiss Hawk would chop any of these Japanese designs to pieces, and even the Gauntlet and Gladiator were more than a match for the A4N and Ki-10).

The Japanese were never that much of a match on the ground for the Western Armies in a set piece, even fight. They benefited greatly from managing a surprise assault against mainly colonial forces that were ill prepared and trained that was conducted by Japanese troops who were combat veterans. This massive advantage (there is simply no replacement for actual battle experience in preparing troops) does not exist in this scenario since the IJA has not been engaged in what was by 1941 better than five years of constant combat.

There is also the not inconsiderable matter of operational distance. The Japanese had bases in French Indochina to stage their attacks against Malaya and the DEI, as well as significant forces in China and on Hanan to act as logistical bases to support the move into the Southern Resource Area. In this scenario the closest Japanese support base is in the Palaus or the Mandates, with most forces having to come from Formosa or the Home Islands. The Japanese were NOT well equipped to operate at long range from logistical support.

Any IJN movement toward the Southern Resource Area would also undoubted be observed by U.S. forces operating out of the PI and Guam. While it is extremely unlikely that the U.S. would engage the Japanese, it is also close it ASB to imagine that the Americans wouldn't pick up the phone and call the British Embassy to have a quiet chat.

Overall the Japanese would be in a gravely disadvantageous situation, operating far from home, with long, extremely vulnerable supply lines, against well supplied and equally well prepared European forces that would not be surprised and would not be at the short end of the technological teeter-totter.

Lastly (and perhaps most critically) there would be absolutely no reason for the Japanese to attack the Europeans in this scenario. If they are not engaged in China, or occupying French Indochina the United States has not frozen their dollar assets, cut off oil and metal imports, or done anything else that forced the Japanese into their desperate lunge south. Without the war in China the IJA and IJN are also not in any burning need for supplies.

Simply put, without the war against China, the Japanese have utterly no reason to engage in any aggression of any kind.

Which would really be the best possible situation for Japan. "The only winning move is not to play," to quote Joshua from War Games (as well as Jeff Bridges from Tron 2).

Which begs the question: Why the hell did the Japanese cross the Yalu and start the whole %¤$#" mess in the first place?
 

Hkelukka

Banned
Lets see. What would Japan have to gain by going into war in 1939. Well realistically, not much, but lets just assume that they see that little mussolinisque moment of "taking them on when they fall" and decide to jump the bandwagon, despite every common sense analysis of the situation.

They could certainly cause considerable redirection of forces to the asian theater from the european theater by the allies. Making, if anything, German advances in europe even better. Italy might be able to give UK a run for its money in africa, tho unlikely to. US would definently not enter the war before the fall of France, if even then. UK would also probably not go with Norway and scandinavia would probably be left outside of the war, for the time being, no swedish ore for a possibly overstretched navy.

After Allies-Japanese war gets going you can bet that China will start its civil war again very quickly thinking that they are secure for the time being.

In the long term, this might make US war entry far more unlikely than in OTL. Oil Embargo would probably happen as per OTL but the eventual red horde smashing the Japanese to tiny bits in late 1941 would cripple japan by 1942, latest. Maybe with Japan making a separate peace, losing all its Chinese and Korean territory to SU and dropping out of the war by 1942 summer US could decide that the war is going to end in an allied victory fairly quickly and stay out of it altogether.

Anyway, short of Japan in 1939 deciding that it needs to jump the on the SU as soon as Germany does AND NOT mess with anyone else there isnt much that can change the outcome. But if you allow for 2 years of preparation for the SU war and keep japan out of any wars for the duration and jump in the initial confusion you might have some success. Anyway, sorry for the sort of rambling tone in my post :).
 

Hendryk

Banned
After Allies-Japanese war gets going you can bet that China will start its civil war again very quickly thinking that they are secure for the time being.

In the long term, this might make US war entry far more unlikely than in OTL. Oil Embargo would probably happen as per OTL but the eventual red horde smashing the Japanese to tiny bits in late 1941 would cripple japan by 1942, latest. Maybe with Japan making a separate peace, losing all its Chinese and Korean territory to SU and dropping out of the war by 1942 summer US could decide that the war is going to end in an allied victory fairly quickly and stay out of it altogether.
The initial premise is problematic for the reasons CalBear has pointed out--namely, if Japan doesn't invade China, what reasons does it have to go to war against European powers in the first place?--but if we go with it and assume that China is left alone from 1931, then the odds are that the Nationalists will be able to finish off the Communists, so no "eventual red horde". However, the Nationalists themselves would probably try and get Manchuria back at some point.
 

Hkelukka

Banned
Exactly, but even if we for the sake of argument assume Japan really wants hong kong and french indochina and are willing to sour generations of good relations to get them. (French-Uk-Japan have until 1941 OTL had very good relations).

Then yeah, they can do it and probably keep the allies off balance and make life a bit easier for Germany. But joining the axis in 1939 means going to war with the soviet union in 1941 and soviet union will, with near absolute certainty, roll over Japan without breaking a sweat. At which point Japan would lose both Manchuria and Korea and be left with HK and French indochina. While SU would still win Barbarossa. So, yeah red horde for the win in this one.
 
Must say I am a bit saddened by the lack of interest, when you do some serious research and there are hardly any replies :(


As the others have pointed out, apart from looking up various ship names and locations, unit TO&Es, and other military trivia, you've done little actual research.

Putting it another way, you've been approaching this from a wargame standpoint and not a time line standpoint and your first assumption, that Japan does not enter war with China, illustrate that neatly. You're focusing more on potential alt-battles than the alt-history which would produce those battles.

This time line presumes a very different Japan than the Japan of the OTL and yet you blew that aspect off from the beginning. China had been in Japan's sights for centuries. As far as "modern" Japan goes, the Meiji government was seriously considering invading China as early as 1871. That's only three years after the Restoration and before the Meiji have their constitution was in place, have full control of Japan, or have even begun to really modernize their military.

Without first answering why Japan's centuries old fixation on China has changed, asking what happens if Japan goes to war with the European powers in 1939 is fruitless.
 
Firstly, it may be hard for Japan to avoid a clash with China in 1937. Many of the Tokyo staff of the IJA wanted to avoid such clashes and had created a North China Army separate from the Kwantung Army specifically to limit the influence of the most aggressive individuals such as Doihara. However, they might have gone a little further by noticing that Col. Mutaguchi was a member of the Society of the Cherry and posting him elsewhere, which might have avoided the initial clashes. It is also possible that with full Japanese support for Hashimoto, he might have made a deal with Sung and avoided escalation. On the other hand, it is possible that Chinese forces were as keen on exploiting the clash as were any of the Japanese. Certainly, no one in the KMT wanted to be associated with any further steps back in the face of Japanese pressure and it may have been believed that foreign intervention from either the USSR or the Western Powers would help China.

About three months down the line, you might be able to get back to the something like your POD if Japanese policy had been very different although Hendryk probably won't agree that China would or could have made peace. In January 1938, the IJA Chief of Staff Prince Kan'in and his Vice-Chief Tada Hayao tried to see Hirohito to argue for a policy of ending the Sino-Japanese War by negotiation but were not allowed to present their case. Their argument was the same as that of Ishiwara that the war with China was the wrong war at the wrong time and that Japan should be seeking to build its industry for a clash with the USSR. If we assume that Ishiwara had met and influenced Prince Konoe over the period 1932-7 instead of Konoe OTL being influenced by the Imperial Way Faction (Konoe even appointed Araki Sadao as Minister of Education although he had been retired from the Army), we could imagine Konoe, Kan'in and perhaps even Fushimi, if someone had said that the IJN's funding was at risk, all going to see Hirohito in early November. Such a combination would be capable of taking control of Japanese policy and offering good terms to China via Germany at the moment when China had realised that nobody was going to help them and before Chiang had achieved control of Sichuan. If we want to bias things a little further, we could give Ishiwara less influence in August 1937 or better relations with Tojo and have Japan sending more of the regular Kwantung Army south instead of keeping them to watch the Russians. Tojo believed that had more forces been sent there would have been fewer casualties. From our point of view, a more rapid Japanese advance in North China might have also made China more willing to make peace.

Even if in either way there is no war with China after the end of 1937, there are still a few problems:p. The obvious one is that it was the “Holy War” in China that justified Japanese censorship and the mobilization of the economy. The Japanese voted in 1936 and 1937 and both times rejected candidates from the right. Thus no war will leave the military in a fairly strong position but faced with a Diet full of critical politicians. The problem with prediction is the POD of no war almost forces us to have a more sensible Prince Konoe and his policies are hard to predict!

A war ending with few apparent gains in December 1937 would produce even deeper problems. In a thread at Axis History Forum, Peter H posted from Edward Drea Japan's Imperial Army page 196: “Losses for the four month Shanghai fighting were enormous:more than 40,000 Japanese and perhaps 200,000 Chinese were killed,wounded or missing.
Casualties of this magnitude shocked the Japanese public.Tokyo police had to be called to disperse angry demonstrators surrounding the home of a regimental commander whose unit had suffered heavy losses at Shanghai.In Shikoku the widow of another regimental commander killed at Shanghai committed suicide,unable to bear the stream of vituperation directed at her late husband..”

Thus we might expect that there would be a popular reaction against the IJA after an early peace.

Another problem concerns Japan's relations with the USSR. OTL there was a serious battle at Khalkhyn Gol or Nomonhan in August 1939. The significance of this is that the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was poorly received in Japan in the middle of this battle. It is unlikely that Japan would have supported Germany shortly after such a betrayal. That is why a Anglo-Japanese War starting over the Asama Maru Incident is normally grouped with the Trent War as rather improbable although it has been mentioned here in a list of a ways for Germany to win WW2.

And finally
...
Must say I am a bit saddened by the lack of interest, when you do some serious research and there are hardly any replies :(
Normally doing serious research deters replies because it is harder to poke holes in the posting:D.
 
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