Discussion: Color of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

[iori]

Alright, so as we all know their are various color schemes with many using different colors for a country from another, however this is not necessarily about existing colors, but about a specific situation, that is about the color of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

As is stands on maps the PLC is given the Poland color, however this does'nt make alot of sense as it was neither the successor to a single country (Poland), nor was it Poland in everything but name (Lithuania was the larger, more powerful partner); their is also the issue the a separate PLC color is needed for part of the period before it came into being when Poland and Lithuania were both separate states but were in a proto-supranational Union for awhile.

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by Iori

As is stands on maps the PLC is given the Poland color, however this does'nt make alot of sense as it was neither the successor to a single country (Poland), nor was it Poland in everything but name (Lithuania was the larger, more powerful partner); their is also the issue the a separate PLC color is needed for part of the period before it came into being when Poland and Lithuania were both separate states but were in a proto-supranational Union for awhile.

1. Lithuania was larger, but not more powerful partner. More like the other way around. Canada has bigger territory than US, AFAIR, but would you call Canada stronger? Poland was more advanced, economically stronger and had bigger population (even more after 1569 when most of today Ukraine was taken form GDL and given to the Kingdom of Poland). The fact that Lithuania accepted Christianity from Poland also mattered at the time. It is also good to remember, that in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania ethnic Lithuanians were a minority - most of its people were Ruthenians (ancestors of today Belorussians, Ukrainians and Russians).
2. You are right, that there is a difference between PLC (after Union of Lublin in 1569) and Poland and Lithuanian union since 1386 (Union of Krewo and other treaties). Poland and Lithuania were allied, they had the same monarch (not always), but they were formally separate states.

 

[iori]

1. Lithuania was larger, but not more powerful partner. More like the other way around. Canada has bigger territory than US, AFAIR, but would you call Canada stronger? Poland was more advanced, economically stronger and had bigger population (even more after 1569 when most of today Ukraine was taken form GDL and given to the Kingdom of Poland). The fact that Lithuania accepted Christianity from Poland also mattered at the time. It is also good to remember, that in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania ethnic Lithuanians were a minority - most of its people were Ruthenians (ancestors of today Belorussians, Ukrainians and Russians).

Huh, I was under the impression that Lithuania had started out as the stronger of the two but Poland gradually replaced it over time, guess you learn something new every week.

That said, what general color do you think would work for the PLC and pre-PLC Union?

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

There's three color in UCS for Poland/lithuania: Poland itself/PLC, Lithuania and polish kingdom (if disunited). If any doubtful situation arises, i tend to use the PK color for Poland (even if united) the lithuanian color for Lithuania and the PLC color as an outline (as per HRE). If any other problems arise, there's always the puppet/protectorate/Other, or dual stripping.

Unless you have in mind a very specific situation that would require a different color or convention.

 

[iori]

There's three color in UCS for Poland/lithuania: Poland itself/PLC, Lithuania and polish kingdom (if disunited). If any doubtful situation arises, i tend to use the PK color for Poland (even if united) the lithuanian color for Lithuania and the PLC color as an outline (as per HRE). If any other problems arise, there's always the puppet/protectorate/Other, or dual stripping.

Unless you have in mind a very specific situation that would require a different color or convention.

The UCS only has a color for Poland, you're probably thinking of one of the other color schemes.

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

The UCS only has a color for Poland, you're probably thinking of one of the other color schemes.

RCS.
My bad.


EDIT: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/lib/exe/fetch.php/resources/rcs_key_vs._3.0png.png

 

[iori]

RCS.
My bad.


EDIT: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/lib/exe/fetch.php/resources/rcs_key_vs._3.0png.png

Looking at it it only has colors for Poland (and uses Polands color for the PLC) and two for Lithuania and/or minor Polish states (the former of which should not be included and have its own separate color).

What I'm talking about is having one color for Poland, one for Lithuania and then a third separate color for the PLC.

 

[Alex Richards]

Honestly, it's not really necessary. You can represent the PLC using the Polish colour, or Poland and Lithuania with an autonomous region (as opposed to international) border between them, or Polish outline with Lithuania and the Polish Kingdom states being used.

We don't give the UK a different colour from England, nor do we give Spain a different colour from Castille. Yes it's a simplification, but frankly so is only having 6 colours for India, and probably to a far greater extent.

In the end, it's another colour, which would probably be inconsistently applied and highly divisive anyway, in an area which is already very dense with colours.

 

[iori]

Honestly, it's not really necessary. You can represent the PLC using the Polish colour, or Poland and Lithuania with an autonomous region (as opposed to international) border between them, or Polish outline with Lithuania and the Polish Kingdom states being used.

We don't give the UK a different colour from England, nor do we give Spain a different colour from Castille. Yes it's a simplification, but frankly so is only having 6 colours for India, and probably to a far greater extent.

In the end, it's another colour, which would probably be inconsistently applied and highly divisive anyway, in an area which is already very dense with colours.

Their is a requirement though, that being that both Poland and Lithuania for awhile existed seperately but as part of a proto-Supranational Union (more than just a Personal Union) and thus we need a third color for the outline.

Also, unlike Wessex and England both Poland and Lithuania went on to exist after the PLC went extinct and thus to someone who does'nt know about it it just looks like Poland expanded and shrank over time as opposed to having ceased to exist as a result of merging into a large state.

 

[Dumanios]

I think TACOS has a color for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If not, then I'd use the color of the dominant partner.

 

[Alex Richards]

Their is a requirement though, that being that both Poland and Lithuania for awhile existed seperately but as part of a proto-Supranationa Union (more than just a Personal Union) and thus we need a third color for the outline.

Also, unlike Wessex and England both Poland and Lithuania went on to exist after the PLC went extinct and thus to someone who does'nt know about it it just looks like Pland expanded and shrank over time as opposed to having ceased to exist as a result of merging into a large state.

Then use the autonomous border between the two- indicating that while domestically independnt they should probably be considered a single state for international purposes- or use Polish outline on both, with Poland getting the minor kingdom colour. Also, supposing Scotland goes independent in 2014, would you require that we give a new colour to the UK because England and Scotland now exist as seperate nations again?

Just to play devils advocate for a moment you understand.

I've no objections if you want to add it to the GCS template, but I just don't see the necessity of it myself, and don't really see how it can be justified to other people seeing as we've managed perfectly well without one until now.

 

[iori]

Also, supposing Scotland goes independent in 2014, would you require that we give a new colour to the UK because England and Scotland now exist as seperate nations again?

Just to play devils advocate for a moment you understand.

They are'nt the same situations though, if Scotland leaves it will still be the United Kingdom as the UK is'nt dissolving and England is'nt becoming independent; the equivalent would be if part of the Lithuanian core left but the rest of Lithuania and Poland remained as a single unti forming the PLC.

seeing as we've managed perfectly well without one until now.

That's not saying to terribly much considering the vast majority of the Map Series is of time periods the PLC did'nt exist.

 

[Vladyslav]

I think it necessary to create color Międzymorze/West Slavic Union/Baltic-Black See Union/Supranationalist East European Union

 

[Axeman]

Depends on which color looks best next to Greenshevik Russia.

 

[Alex Richards]

They are'nt the same situations though, if Scotland leaves it will still be the United Kingdom as the UK is'nt dissolving and England is'nt becoming independent; the equivalent would be if part of the Lithuanian core left but the rest of Lithuania and Poland remained as a single unti forming the PLC.




That's not saying to terribly much considering the vast majority of the Map Series is of time periods the PLC did'nt exist.

The simple thing is, I really just don't see the need. It's one of those simplifications that just seems an obvious one to make given how much we've got to cover otherwise.

But really, we could do with getting a few of the other basemap people in here, we've clearly reached a personal impasse.

 

[iori]

The simple thing is, I really just don't see the need. It's one of those simplifications that just seems an obvious one to make given how much we've got to cover otherwise.

But really, we could do with getting a few of the other basemap people in here, we've clearly reached a personal impasse.

We shall have to agree to disagree yes; ultimately I think that our disagreement extends towards part of the general system itself.

As to others well, yes we shall, though I suspect we'll end-up with a veritable rainbow as a result.

 

[iori]

Oh, also Alex, rather than making a new thread I did have another thing that I'd like you input on; basically while making a map I've noticed that the French color and Venetian color are way to similar, now in several circumstances this would'nt matter, however their are some in which the two are right next ot each other and both have non-contiguous territory which could lead to confusion.

Now, for the time being I'm using a placeholder color, but I have'nt decided on a new color and and wanted to get your feedback as for the most part I tend to like to keep the GCS relatively close to the UCS and RCS.

 

[Alex Richards]

Hmmm. It does looks like it might be a problem. Could you post an example so I can see exactly how bad it is?

In any case, I think it needs to be a blue of some sort based purely on the fact that the rest of Italy is Browns, Green, Orange, Purples and Pinks. We've also got the darker blue of Naples, but that one was quite specifically chosen not to blend with France.

Perhaps swap it for one of the lesser used/more recent blues? You could probably try the Norse Colonial Successor, Kongo, Other Russia/Belarus and Punjabi colours.

 

[iori]

Hmmm. It does looks like it might be a problem. Could you post an example so I can see exactly how bad it is?

In any case, I think it needs to be a blue of some sort based purely on the fact that the rest of Italy is Browns, Green, Orange, Purples and Pinks. We've also got the darker blue of Naples, but that one was quite specifically chosen not to blend with France.

Perhaps swap it for one of the lesser used/more recent blues? You could probably try the Norse Colonial Successor, Kongo, Other Russia/Belarus and Punjabi colours.

Here's an example using the map I ran into the problem with (though these would'nt all be on it);
-Morea is influenced by Venice while Sicily is influence by France
-The Ionian Islands are Ventian and Cyprus is French
-Venice is claiming part of French Cyprus

 

[Alex Richards]

Ah, not as bad as I thought it was going to be.

The only problem I can see there is a possible slight confusion between the Morea and Sicily, but that's got far more to do with the fact that you tend to use an outline for influence, whereas I'd consider an infil to be better (it looks very strongly like the Morea is either being claimed by Venice, or is de Jure Venetian, de facto independent). It would be more of an issue if they acually were de jure claims, but it's still very obvious they're not the same country. Working out which is which is a perennial issue if you've not got the 'obvious' areas in frame anyway.

Otherwise, the mainland is very clear, and I can tell the Venetian claim from Cyprus easily. Venice might be confused with some of the colours used for Rivers though, but those don't really seem to be used all that much anyway.

Although this could be different monitor/display settings speaking.