Different Roman Empire. Licinius victory.

Kosovic

Banned
I am saying....what if Licinius had won the war against Constantine? I am trying to create an ATL based on that. Maybe i didnt do it too well, you will be the judge.

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314 AD
In Colonia Aurelia Cibalae, Constantine is grossly defeated by Licinius. (The change from OTL to ATL). Constantine is forced to withdraw back to Italian peninsula, signing a humiliating peace treaty which included to disband some of his veteran legions and acknowledge Licinius the Younger as Ceasar. Constantine withdraws to Ravenna, and then to Rome, humiliated as the senate and the people of Rome curse and insult him for his defeat. Licinius soldifies his power to the East. Nicomedia becomes the administation center of the East part of the Roman Empire. Later in 314 the empire splits in two halves. Licinius turns Nicomedia from administration center, to capital of the Eastern Empire and Constantine keeps Rome as the capital of the West.

315 AD
The empire is split in two halves. To the west, Constantine rules still, with the Edict Of Mediolanum still in charge. To the east, Licinius continues to persecute the christians, whose numbers keep dropping lower and lower. The humiliated Constantine, is advised constantly of revenge. Licinius raises his son, along with capable general from Andrianople Valerius Valens, to the rank of Augustus, and awaits acknowledge from the western Emperor. Constantine refuses, and breaks the peace treaty. The civil war starts again. Naval skirmish in the Adriatic end up in a stalemate. Constantine is ill-advised to draw legions from Gaul and begin the march. Constantine, knowing that this would be catastrophic for the Gaulish provinces, he plans to raise new legions from Italy. It takes around 2 years to raise a legion. Now, in one year or less, Constantine has to fill the gap that his defeat at Cibalae created.

316 AD
Early in 316, Constantine raised his army and begins the march towards the lands of Licinius. The Adriatic sea is dangerous, with the two Roman fleets at a constant stalemate, the only path is to north Italy, to Aquileia, and from there, down to the lands of Illyricum and then Dacia. Licinius, unable to abandon his anti-christian campaign to the east, sends general Valerius from Andrianople. Licinius took message of Constantine's movements only after the latter one reached Cibalae, the battlefield where he was defeated less than two years ago. The army of Constantine, unable to resupply due to the naval blockades, resorted to looting, while staying in Illyricum. Without his veteran units, the Constantinian army is nothing more than young men who lack the experience of fighting legionaries. Avoiding the coasts at any cost, Constantine's army, arrives at Sirmium and besieges it. The siege is long, and the army of Valerius has taken note of the siege, by messenger. Their march pace is speeded up. If Sirmium falls, then the road is open for the western army to reach Macedonia and Thrace. Valerius takes the Via Militaris and reaches Naissus to resupply. In the mean time, Sirmium is starving. The besieging army has all the time to forage and loot whatever the defenders couldnt save. Fortunately, Valerius arrives near the settlement of Sigindunum. Constantine cannot keep the siege, he withdraws and prepares for battle. It is already summer, and the two armies, equally matched, meet at the fields between Sirmium and Sigindunum. The outcome of the battle is a pyrrhic victory for Valerius, more of a stalemate, rather than a decisive move. Both armies withdrew towards different directions. Constantine is isolated, battered and bleeding. His army moves to the north of Illyricum, razing whatever is left from the previous months. By the end of the year, after starvation, guerrila fights and desertion, he reaches the Alps.

317 AD
The East might have won, but it was a strong blow for them as well. Valerius lost far too many soldiers. He already had entered Sirmium with supplies, hailed as savior and divine, although this is far from the truth. The army leftovers stayed at Sirmium until the winter of 316. Their march home started soon after, and they reached Thessalonica by the end of the year. From there, through Via Egnatia, the army enters Andrianople. Licinius is on his way to Nikomedia, having succesfully diocesed the christians from Oriens. To the west, Constantine fails to reach Rome, as he dies from sickness, possibly dysentery. The surviving loyal soldiers carry the message all the way to Rome. Crispus is still 16 years old and hardly knows anything about governing an Empire. Licinius the Younger, lays claim upon the western throne, thus uniting the Empire again. The Roman senate refuses. The split between the two realms becomes even greater. Emperor becomes Crispus, firstborn of Constantine. He immediately arrives from Gaul to receive the Roman crown. Both parts of the Empire are exhausted and unwilling to commit more into the civil war. War continues, but the hostilities are kept in small naval skirmishes. Legions are drawn from Gaul to Italy, in case of a naval invasion, although nothing like this happens.

318 AD - 320 AD
In Western Empire, Crispus operates with the Edict Of Mediolanum. This causes unrest in Nikomedia between christians and followers of the old faith. The dioceses of the christians by Licinius starts again. Hundreds of christians flee to the West. Crispus seizes the opportunity and contacts the eastern Emperor Licinius. The message is simple: peace, in exchange of religious tolerance. Licinius and his advisors laughed at it. The dioceses continues. To make matters further worse, Crispus converts to christianity. For the first time in history of Roman Empire, and Emperor is a christian. The population has mixed feelings about this move. Unrest in the western realm becomes stronger and stronger. The christian numbers increase day by day, while the old faith fades. Crispus, a pious christian now, tries with peaceful methods to appease the crowds. The turmoil travels throughout the Italian peninsula, and into Gaul and Iberia. The barbarians despise christianity, and the on hearing that the Emperor is now a christian, they rebel. The lack of Roman legions favor the rebellion and soon, small Gaulish warlords proclaim themselves kings and overthrow the Roman yoke. Crispus abandons the peacefull methods and launches an invasion into Gallic lands. Within the year 319, Gaul is reconquered, with some of the former Gallic legions re-stationed there to avoid further discontent. In Iberia, situation is far calmer. The Iberians being far from Rome, hardly take notice of what is happening to the Empire. Crispus returns in 320 in Rome, which flaired up as soon as he left. Christianity is now a major religion in Rome, with the followers of the old faith becoming a small minority. Facing this turmoil, Crispus makes christianity the state's religion. Himself a christian, just how Constantine, his father would want, he created a realm where everyone is free to believe whatever he wants. Or so he believes.

321 - 325 AD
Within these years the numbers of christians increase in Rome and they start to increase in other parts of Italy as well. In Rome, all the pagan temples have already been burned, destroyed, or simply made into christian churches. The same unrest that Rome has seen 2 years ago, is about to be seen in the whole western Roman world. Christianity is spreading, due to the continuous dioceses of the Eastern Emperor Licinius and the favorable christian lands of the West. The East hunts christianity with a passion, proclaiming the old faith to be the one and true faith. The Eastern Empire now favors the ancient Roman god Janus, mostly by misinterpretations of old scripts, when Rome was a small city called Latium. This ancient deity is revived in the Eastern Empire, combined with Platonic scripts, it creates a strong religious backbone. Faith of Janus is signed as the official faith of the Eastern Empire, in the Edict of Byzantium, considering all other faiths to be false. More and more christians flee to the west, leaving few people behind. In Western Empire though, the numbers of refugees increase month by month, making squalor reach very high levels. In Rome, homeless christians live and sleep in the Forum, as the emperor hastes to build camps and villages for them to stay. These 4 years the religious word begins to spread. To the west, the christian monks start as new apostles, to teach the word of jesus christ. To the east, the priests teach the ancient doctrines. The hunt for believes, has begun.
 
You are moving to Fast, given the size of the two empires, many people would not of heard about what is going on,
They certainly wouldn't be fleeing as Refugees.
 

Kosovic

Banned
Yes i see what u mean. If i change the dates and keep the events as they are....will that fix it into a more realistic story?
 
I also believe Licinius was himself pro-Christain (as was Maxentius Daia) though I'm not 100% sure on this. Now if Galerius was Augustus, that's different.
 
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I like it my friend, but wasn't the East far more strongly Christian than the west? Having already survived three centuries of persecution so that they now made up around 25%-40% of the Eastern population, I find it hard to believe that the Eastern Emperors would be able to wipe out Christianity so quickly and easily.
Other than this, very good, keep it up!
 

Kosovic

Banned
I made a small search, and i saw that Licinius disregarded the Edict Of Mediolanum and started another dioceses against the christians. With Constantine defeated instead of victor, it is logical for the christian population to flee to the west where there was religion freedom, or so i believe. However i plan to abolish all these stuff Licinius does right now, by the next eastern emperor. The Edict of Mediolanum will be accepted the east too, and christianity will return to the eastern part. If 30% of the population was christian, i suppose that after Licinius, only 25% will be christian. But their numbers will increase after the abolish of Licinius nonsense.
 
Oh OK. And are you getting the word "diocese" confused. In English at least it means the area a bishop has power over, and in the Roman Empire, it meant Diocletian's divisions. Are you thinking of "persecutions"?

Sorry to appear patronising :D
 
somewhat interesting, the flaws have been for the most part shown. Also, I am curious what Crispus will deal with his brothers, who had quite a number of personal defects when they come of age.
 
I made a small search, and i saw that Licinius disregarded the Edict Of Mediolanum and started another dioceses against the christians. With Constantine defeated instead of victor, it is logical for the christian population to flee to the west where there was religion freedom, or so i believe. However i plan to abolish all these stuff Licinius does right now, by the next eastern emperor. The Edict of Mediolanum will be accepted the east too, and christianity will return to the eastern part. If 30% of the population was christian, i suppose that after Licinius, only 25% will be christian. But their numbers will increase after the abolish of Licinius nonsense.

Aw! But I was hoping this would be a TL where christianity was confined to a smallish western Rome, with a strong pagan eastern empire. Oh well...
 

Kosovic

Banned
I am thinking about. Apparently is harder to write (unless i turn it entirely to fantasy writing). So far, i have two options with East. Either they accept paganism and continue the persecution, OOOOOOR Licinius becomes a first form of Julian the Apostate, with his actions marking history but abolished by the next emperors. I am tempted the keep the Eastern Empire pagan, although i dont know if that could be possible.
 
I am thinking about. Apparently is harder to write (unless i turn it entirely to fantasy writing). So far, i have two options with East. Either they accept paganism and continue the persecution, OOOOOOR Licinius becomes a first form of Julian the Apostate, with his actions marking history but abolished by the next emperors. I am tempted the keep the Eastern Empire pagan, although i dont know if that could be possible.


Well, at this time, I'm sure that a determined emperor (or, I guess, dynasty rather) could get away with it. Especially if there is a "christian free state" in the reminants of the western part of the empire. I'm thinking that eastern christians would flee into the west, while pagans in the west flee east. And if the pagans in the east keep believing that other religions (well, except for christianity, and perhaps judaism?) are basically the same under other names - the established practice of interpratio romana will be enough I'm sure
- they won't alienate the germanic and gaulish pagan tribes.

What do you think?
 

Kosovic

Banned
That is actually a very logical move. If we take it as far as persecuting the pagans, then they will definately move to the East, where they would be safe. And it will soldify the split of the empires certainly. I will post the full timeline (the first one, mildly changed in the dates and some events, and the new chapters) as soon as i finish it..
 
How about, if the empire goes pagan, have Christianity become established in Britain and the barbarian tribes of Germany? Also, if the East Romans are strongly persecuting the Christians, the Sassanids will become very pro-Christian, and may even convert. You could have Persian and Celtic branches of Christianity evolving, separated from each other by a pagan Rome!
 

Kosovic

Banned
Well, i thought about the Germans and the Celts. If a Pagan persecution starts in their lands, many will fight back, but quite a few will decide to convert instead of facing the legions once more. For now....the eastern christians flee to the west. Mostly because the persecution is happening in the Balkans and the Asia Minor. If Licinius pushes over into deeper Anatolian grounds and middle east, the christians will definately find refuge in the Persian lands.
 
Well, i thought about the Germans and the Celts. If a Pagan persecution starts in their lands, many will fight back, but quite a few will decide to convert instead of facing the legions once more.

If the christians start to prozelythise among the celts and germans, won't the pagan east try to suppourt those that oppose the christians? They'll be sharing a common enemy, if nothing else.
 

Kosovic

Banned
Hmmm....i thought about a population exchange based on religion. So if some Gaullish are christians, they can stay. If they wish to keep their pagan beliefs, they will have to cross the borders or march towards the Eastern Roman Empire.

QUESTION: By 350 AD, how old would Crispus, Constantine II, Valerius, Valens and Licinius II be? Assumming Licinius died at 339 and he was nearly 80 years old.
 
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