Determinism regarding cultural inertia in Japan (AHC: less institutional xenophobia, sexism, etc. in Japanese society)

I'm pretty sure he meant the shock of the invasion would change Japanese culture, not that the Mongols would bring in a better culture. Kinda like how Rome was traumatized by that one time the Celts sacked Rome and shaped their collective psyche.
It changed anyway without Mongols though, also note that the Mongols aren't the only point here, the OP literally has "Japan has to be colonized".

Also, how did the Mongol invasions "change" the Chinese and Koreans? AFAIK the Ming and Joseon reinforced traditional Chinese and Korean customs rather than transforming their cultures into something else.
 
I guess it was due to the pushback against foreign intervention and influence during the years of Mongol rule? In regards to the Joseon, I think part of it was that the Goryeo dynasty, which adopted some Mongol influences and plenty of Mongol ancestry from wedding Mongol princesses, was seen as corrupt, collaborative, and ineffectual and the Joseon needed legitimacy after General Yi's coup, hence the push to emphasize the Koreanness of the nation. Buddhism, for example, was seen as part of why the Goryeo fell, I've heard. Not that it stopped people from being Buddhist but there was a decline in Korean Buddhism during the Joseon from the Goryeo period.

As for change? Korea wouldn't have soju if not for the Mongols, apparently (since it originated in the Levant and traveled back to East Asia with the Mongols), so that's a massive impact (think of how many Korean businessmen would have functioning kidneys otherwise. South Korea has the highest alcohol consumption per capita of any Asia nation and the highest hard liquor of any country).
 
I'm pretty sure he meant the shock of the invasion would change Japanese culture, not that the Mongols would bring in a better culture. Kinda like how Rome was traumatized by that one time the Celts sacked Rome and shaped their collective psyche.
I think the point CalBear and the two reddit posts I mentioned were trying to make is that Japan needed to have contact with other peoples forced on them (whether it be the Mongols or the Portuguese or anybody else), and that was the only way they could get used to living with other ethnic groups, and not have a homogeneous society that has little incentive to change its policy concerning immigration. Relevant portion of the second reddit post:
Eisenblume said:
Britain was certainly an island as well, but it was an island that was conquered by different cultures and had a multitude of cultures around them. Iceland was not an independant state, but first norwegian and then danish. Thus they had contact forced upon them.
 
Last edited:
So, how do people here think Japan could have been more accepting of immigration?
Ironically, staying on the imperialist track might make their society more "cosmopolitan" (at least in the sense that large minorities of colonized peoples will settle in Japan- the Zainichi Korean population was in the millions by the end of WWII, for example, but then again, a lot of that wasn't strictly voluntary immigration).
 

Faeelin

Banned
I think the point CalBear and the two reddit posts I mentioned were trying to make is that Japan needed to have contact with other peoples forced on them (whether it be the Mongols or the Portuguese or anybody else), and that was the only way they could get used to living with other ethnic groups, and not have a homogeneous society that has little incentive to change its policy concerning immigration. Relevant portion of the second reddit post:

Oh yes, the Danes and Norwegians, so unlike the Icelandic people.
 
Are you talking about "warm water ports," and does the whole "product of geography" thing being garbage also apply to the idea that Japan was destined to have a xenophobic society because they are an island, separated from the rest of Asia by seas and oceans, that wasn't conquered by different cultures? And that the whole idea of Japanese ethnic supremacism (which got to its worst in the 1930s and 40s) had been bolstered by the failed Mongol invasion? (which I'm guessing is why CalBear said that the Mongols had to succeed in their invasion in order for Japanese society to change)

(for example, expressed here - I'm only showing where I've found this idea)




oh yeah, and then there's the idea that Confucian influence and cultural inertia is the reason why Japanese workplaces are behind on gender equality

Yes, this is a bit long so bear with me.

I would argue Japanese xenophobia was less about geography or not being conquered or even attacked, as the islands of Tsushima were attacked by the Koreans because of piracy, it was more a security measure for a deeply divided and unstable nation.

Come the fall of the Kamakura Shogunate in 1333, the first of 3 Shogunates, the Emperor Go-Daigo tried to regain power. This led to a period of division numerous clans backed either the Southern Court led by Go-Daigo and his line or the Ashikaga backed Jimyoin line from which all current emperors are descended from, we're going this far back because the Ashikaga sets the stage for Japan as we know it. The Ashikaga won out and made the emperor a figurehead, but in entrusting their strength to military governors the Shugo, but their ability to divide and rule them only lasted until the Onin War, left the Shogun a figurehead as well. What is important from this is the Ashikaga never had complete control over the country but always needed the Shugo to help them.

The later Ashikaga period saw the various lords as basically their own countries, and even these lords could be usurped or made into figureheads as well. However, there was a possibility for this to change, having a lord unite the country through military force. This could have happened with Oda Nobunaga or a successor provided Honoji did not happen. Instead, Hideyoshi had the power to rule, by not legitimacy to become Shogun, which saw him go on worthless adventures such as the invasions of Korea, while Tokugawa Ieyasu had the legitimacy, but like the Ashikaga needed the support of others. However, unlike the Ashikaga, the Tokugawa appealed to isolation and some xenophobia to maintain power, instead of what the Ashikaga did by strengthing the lords, by playing them off each other, the Tokugawa resorted to weakening them all if possible. There was also the need to keep "dissident" social movements in check, be it banning Christianity, and reducing the power of the monasteries, who depending on the school had fielded their own armies and even had local government. This failure to create a stable enough political structure that could really keep down the feudal lords is what led to the xenophobia as more of a side effect, then anything inherent in Japanese culture.

Later Japanese nationalism that led to what we saw in World War II was a reaction from that isolation, and possibly justified need to beat the West at its own game or risk becoming a puppet. Out of this, is where you saw plenty of mythologizing of past history to create a nationalist myth of what was a nation that had went several through sperate periods near-constant warfare and civil strife, as being more united and unique than it was. For example the Japanese were able to hold off the Mongol invasions twice as a roughly united nation, however, the Japanese island Tsushima was actually occupied by Korea at one point because Japan was divided. The idea of holding the emperor in reverence was a later invention considering, the current emperors can be technically seen as usurpers, who were installed not because they were revered but because they were weak. The Imperial Court of the period was so destitute Emperors had to sell their own paintings or ask for donations for their own coronations.

Trying to get an answer from "culture" is hard, because national or societal characters are often time made up or created from questionable interpretations, and usually as a sticking point for some kind superiority or inferiority for some reason.
 
Another thing about the whole idea of "warrior culture inertia": was this impossible to prevent? The whole Satsuma/Choshu militaristic oligarchy?

To make Japan doesn't invade China need a complete revamp of Japanese political structure right from Meiji Restoration. Japan already dominated by military since the Restoration (in a sense Japanese government that rise after the fall of Tokugawa Shogunate is also a Shogunate, but the power simply transferred and distributed to Chossu, Satsuma, and Tosa samurais). Such kind of militaristic government will eventually expand and swallow their weaker neighbors.
 
Last edited:
Like, are they implying that Japan is inherently militaristic, or in other words, that militarism is part of their "national character"? (and the only way that they can not be like that is if they are defeated in war)
 

Faeelin

Banned
Another thing about the whole idea of "warrior culture inertia": was this impossible to prevent? The whole Satsuma/Choshu militaristic oligarchy?

This goes back to my pet peeve about how Germany's militarism isn't due to the sonderweg, but Japanese militarism is inevitable because they fought a civil war in the 16th century.
 
Also, I just asked about the decline in the Japanese tech industry in r/asksocialscience (supposed to be answered by professional specialized experts), someone responded by claiming that risk-aversiveness such as that in businesses is a "deeply entrenched ideal in Japanese culture" (yet again, I see the word "entrenched" whenever I see someone talk about the flaws in Japanese society)

TofuTofu said:
[in response to me asking if complacency during the post-war miracle was the main factor]
It's a million factors. You can't point to one. It's nowhere near that simple. Some people bring it back to Bushido culture. Loyalty, "We're all in this together" etc. You can probably chase it back thousands of years if you wanted to do so.

Government bureaucracy is another issue as well. Stagnates growth and innovation.

edit: they did emphasize that you can't just pinpoint it to one factor, and that also includes the notion of "a culture rooted thousands of years back."
 
Last edited:
Both Japan and US have Chinese do their tech products and don't manufacture their products in their country and both Japan and US has non voting left leaning millennials and their ancestors displaced the original people in their lands, the Ainu in Honshu and Hokkaido and Native Americans in US.
 
Both Japan and US have Chinese do their tech products and don't manufacture their products in their country and both Japan and US has non voting left leaning millennials and their ancestors displaced the original people in their lands, the Ainu in Honshu and Hokkaido and Native Americans in US.
And the continental US could hold 25 Japans and has vast swathes of arable land and Japan has some of the most urbanized regions with the highest population density in the entire world and Japan's been populated by the ancestors of its dominant group for thousands of years while the US has had a European-descent majority for less than 300, what of it? Most tech products in general are manufactured in China, plenty of developed nations have left-leaning, non-voting millennials, and the predecessors of the Japanese people overtook the indigenous people millennia ago without nearly the amount of disease related deaths. But we don't reference the Anglo-Saxons displacing the Celtic Britons or the Indo-Europeans displacing the people of Europe before them.

Like, are they implying that Japan is inherently militaristic, or in other words, that militarism is part of their "national character"? (and the only way that they can not be like that is if they are defeated in war)
Hard to argue a regime that fought no offensive wars for two centuries was very militaristic, I would say. @BBadolato explained it better than I could. It was part of the Japanese national character during the late 19th/early 20th century, sure, but not during the Tokugawa regime. The Meiji Restoration (with the war that restored the emperor to de jure authority), interactions with and emulation of western Great Powers, and the outbursts of nationalism that defined the 19th and 20th centuries were what cemented militarism into Japan for those decades, not the Sengoku Jidai and the Imjin War. Those were convenient for creating the nationalistic mood but wouldn't have been more than matter for textbooks if not for rising militarism. I'd say just the way the world was in that period was enough to create militaristic moods in plenty of nations. But tying a culture to something from a few centuries ago? I mean, it's not like we think of the French or Swedes as highly jingoistic anymore, despite their long and storied military histories (that involved beating on literally all of their neighbors and then some).
 
This. Despite the high technology facade Japan is highly conservative[1] when it comes to actually using such technology. Forget the robots, faxes, video tapes, kerosene heaters, lack of credit card acceptance and incompatible ATM networks is the reality. As is a lack of WiFi and ebooks.

[1] Also sexist and racist.
Is there any way to decrease the sexism and racism in Japanese society?
 
and is it impossible for Japan to have an "entrepreneurship culture?"

I disagree there with the assessment that Japan is at the center of the economy in TTL, they really may have a large economy and they may somehow manage to sustain economic growth, but they don't have the same economic entrepreneurship culture to go into dynamic new industries. I suspect that America is still in the lead with their entrepreneurship. There seems to be more Japanese entrepreneurship nowadays, but it is still very little. It takes a long time for them to have a shift towards a more entrepreneurship culture. IMO, this culture is what makes America a very competitive country and this is something Japan needs to foster.

A shift towards this culture is difficult for Japan to achieve. Anywhere during the booming times will be difficult to push this since they'll probably see themsleves as having a good model without entrepreneurship.
 
edit: He also claims France and Germany can reconcile over past conflicts while China and Japan cannot because
European people are acting like grown-ups, while East Asian people are acting like children.

Grown-ups can think about their situation, and make an informed decision without emotions dictating their opinions.

East Asian people, especially the Japanese, are more like stubborn school children, who will not admit to a wrongdoing and deny it contrary to all evidence. They cannot argue their position because they are not used to their opinions being challenged. So when their opinions are challenged, they just get more angry, more ignorant, and more contrary very similar to a child which is trying to avoid taking responsibility.

And it is true, if you go from Europe to East Asia (Japan), you are constantly reminded how great it is to live in Europe where we can move on and stick together even after horrific times like WWII and Nazi Germany - when you live in Japan you feel like WWII ended yesterday, that’s how much hate there still is in the society.
Honestly, statements such as these and other anecdotes about how "East Asians will forever hate each other," "Japan will always look down on its neighbors," and "Korea and China will never forgive Japan for what it did, no matter what" piss me off so much and are the reason why I would be interested in any TL involving an East Asian union.
 
Last edited:
I personally have a lot of trouble to take seriously any kind of unchanging national character (or anything related to it) - as it's inevitably embedded with "otherness". Today's caricature of the East Asian in the West certainly isn't as patronizing as 19th century Orientalism, but it still says a lot more about the interpreter than the interpreted one.

Doesn't it sounds silly to mix your personal opinions about Charlesmagne's reign, the Seven Years War and the Second Empire to find a "French National Character"?
Much ink was spilled in the 19th century to do just that. A lot of institutions deemed "traditional Chinese/Japanese/French/whatever" are not that traditional.
 
Isn't that true everywhere? I mean the kilt at this point is as famous for being a 19th century invention(albeit based on an older one).
 
Actually, the progressives in Japan are marginalized politically but they have influence in pop culture like Anime and Manga.

The Progressives support reconciliation of japan with other countries.
 
Last edited:
and then there's the idea that the Japanese government could never fully apologize and reconcile because it is
Well, I would say it is true, but neither uniquely Japanese or Asian, nor immutable. I mean, the arechetype of the Education Mama/Tiger Mom was culturally impossible before the advent of mass education and a German-style civil service system, yet Japan, China and a lot of countries around the world have somehow managed to do it! Path dependence is a thing, but it isn't an iron law.
 
Top