Design an automatic rifle for WW2 in 1938

[Deleted member 1487]

Well the OP asked for an automatic rifle not an LMG, so a GPMG seemed a bit of a stretch, but yes a GPMG would make sense.

Edit to add, over the years I have discussed this topic with a few individuals who have used belt and or box fed automatic weapons in combat and I have heard some compelling arguments that belt fed weapons at the squad level may not always be the best choice. So maybe a box fed weapon at squad level and belt fed GPMG's at platoon level might be an option if cost is no object. If cost really doesn't matter have both lightweight magazine fed automatic weapons and belt fed GPMG's available and let commanders decide which ones make the most sense at a given point in time.

Interesting you should mention that, that is the route the Germans took despite having a true MG at the squad level; they pushed it up to the platoon and issue automatic rifles (that they called assault rifles eventually) to the entire squad instead.

View attachment 535525

Get that to work. They were an industrial contract away in 1942. Army Ord thought milling was too expensive.

That's an MG, not an automatic rifle.

In that case maybe go all the way with that mindset and do what the Czechs did, and adopt a heavy SMG with a folding bipod as the SAW. Good out to 250m, very light, uses pistol rounds so more ammo can be carried...

Actually not necessarily a bad idea given normal engagement ranges at the time. Personally I'd say it would be getting to use the same caliber and maybe even bullet as the rest of the rifles and use something closer to a 7.62 Tokarev in power. The Soviets did after all create the LAD, which at least in testing worked very well, just just not as good as their planned RPD/7.62x39.

That sounds like a reasonable approach, issue two per rifle squad and have a belt fed GPMG in 30 06 available as well (your thread implied resources were not really an issue..)

The belt fed GPMG is outside the scope of this thread, but that was basically the M1919 platoon version IOTL.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Okay.......

Right then - so an automatic rifle replacement that is not an LMG

Something lighter than a 10-11 KG LMG, capable of sustained automatic fire 'primarily for suppression fire during the final bound/final assault' (that sort of thing) and capable of being run by a single man and not slow down the Squads movement.

I would look at something like the Suomi 31 (initially intended to be an LMG replacement - it even had a QC barrel!) or the ZK383 both with a bipod and in a powerful higher velocity pistol round such as a hot 9mm x 25 Mauser or a hot 7.62 x 25 Mauser to give it a bit of extra reach.

And then inflict a Kahn type modern factory upon the chosen design and spam out high quality firearms in staggering high numbers.

I would add that the Finnish attempt to do this sort of thing failed with the Suomi 31 gun being used as a high quality SMG and the Finns ultimately adopted the Russian DP-28 in most cases or if not that lucky the porcine M/26 as a squad level LMG.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Okay.......

Right then - so an automatic rifle replacement that is not an LMG

Something lighter than a 10-11 KG LMG, capable of sustained automatic fire 'primarily for suppression fire during the final bound/final assault' (that sort of thing) and capable of being run by a single man and not slow down the Squads movement.

I would look at something like the Suomi 31 (initially intended to be an LMG replacement - it even had a QC barrel!) or the ZK383 both with a bipod and in a powerful higher velocity pistol round such as a hot 9mm x 25 Mauser or a hot 7.62 x 25 Mauser to give it a bit of extra reach.

And then inflict a Kahn type modern factory upon the chosen design and spam out high quality firearms in staggering high numbers.

View attachment 535543
I would add that the Finnish attempt to do this sort of thing failed with the Suomi 31 gun being used as a high quality SMG and the Finns ultimately adopted the Russian DP-28 in most cases or if not that lucky the porcine M/26 as a squad level LMG.

7.63x25mm Mauser was less powerful than it's derivative the 7.62x25mm Tokorev.
That's precisely why you shouldn't use Toks in guns designed for the Mauser.
Higher pressure might cause the gun to blow up.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

7.63x25mm Mauser was less powerful than it's derivative the 7.62x25mm Tokorev.
That's precisely why you shouldn't use Toks in guns designed for the Mauser.
Higher pressure might cause the gun to blow up.

Yes - well that is why I specified a 'Hot' version of the round

 

[BlackDragon98]

Yes - well that is why I specified a 'Hot' version of the round

Ah.
Didn't know what you meant by hot.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Okay.......

Right then - so an automatic rifle replacement that is not an LMG

Something lighter than a 10-11 KG LMG, capable of sustained automatic fire 'primarily for suppression fire during the final bound/final assault' (that sort of thing) and capable of being run by a single man and not slow down the Squads movement.

I would look at something like the Suomi 31 (initially intended to be an LMG replacement - it even had a QC barrel!) or the ZK383 both with a bipod and in a powerful higher velocity pistol round such as a hot 9mm x 25 Mauser or a hot 7.62 x 25 Mauser to give it a bit of extra reach.

And then inflict a Kahn type modern factory upon the chosen design and spam out high quality firearms in staggering high numbers.

View attachment 535543
I would add that the Finnish attempt to do this sort of thing failed with the Suomi 31 gun being used as a high quality SMG and the Finns ultimately adopted the Russian DP-28 in most cases or if not that lucky the porcine M/26 as a squad level LMG.

So a magazine fed LAD?

ЛАД (пулемёт) — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Might be better if it were a bit longer, say have a 30mm long case instead of 25. You could afford having a heavier bolt in a SAW type weapon.

I wonder if something like a 50 round magazine would work in it's case if the magazine was mounted like the Owen Gun.

 

[BlackDragon98]

So a magazine fed LAD?

ЛАД (пулемёт) — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

I wonder if something like a 50 round magazine would work in it's case if the magazine was mounted like the Bren gun.

Tommy gun style drum mag with 100 rnds.
That's the way to go.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Tommy gun style drum mag with 100 rnds.
That's the way to go.

They dump the magazine for a reason:

This is why US troops didn't use drum magazines in Tommy Guns

The "Tommy Gun" used the Colt M1911 grip and its dependable .45-caliber ammunition. Why didn't troops use drum magazines?

www.wearethemighty.com

Now the German top mounted saddle mag might be an option:

MG 15 Saddle Drum magazines and carriier

Gentlemen,From my collection a rare set of three MG 15 saddle drums with their carrier. These carriers were used with the MG 15 ground mount kit.The MG 15 was a German 7.92 mm machine gun designed specifically as a hand manipulated defensive gun for combat aircraft during the early 1930s. By 1941...

gmic.co.uk

 

[Blue cat]

Yes - well that is why I specified a 'Hot' version of the round

I suppose if the pistol round in question is a hot loaded bottle necked cartridge, at some point a solution based on a up loaded pistol round will start to converge on the same performance level(s) as a solution based on a down loaded rifle round I will say I am bit skeptical about using pistol based cartridges at longer ranges in wind based on some time spent observing relatively hot 9x19 mm rounds hitting target back stops some distance from the targets at an outdoor range in high wind, but I suppose a well engineered solution could address this.

 

[BlackDragon98]

They dump the magazine for a reason:

This is why US troops didn't use drum magazines in Tommy Guns

The "Tommy Gun" used the Colt M1911 grip and its dependable .45-caliber ammunition. Why didn't troops use drum magazines?

www.wearethemighty.com

Now the German top mounted saddle mag might be an option:

MG 15 Saddle Drum magazines and carriier

Gentlemen,From my collection a rare set of three MG 15 saddle drums with their carrier. These carriers were used with the MG 15 ground mount kit.The MG 15 was a German 7.92 mm machine gun designed specifically as a hand manipulated defensive gun for combat aircraft during the early 1930s. By 1941...

gmic.co.uk

View attachment 535571

Personally I prefer the 50 rnd side drum of the MG 34/42.
The saddle is too heavy and ungainly.

 

[Blue cat]

The belt fed GPMG is outside the scope of this thread, but that was basically the M1919 platoon version IOTL.

In the context of this thread I was envisioning something that would have been a bit more suitable for use at squad level if so desired. (You did imply resources were not really a constraint so I figured why not go for a US weapon similar to an MG34 or MG42.) That being said in practice I think the M1919 would have worked out ok.

 

[Blue cat]

Personally I prefer the 50 rnd side drum of the MG 34/42.
The saddle is too heavy and ungainly.

Perhaps changing side drum belt containers and loading a belt into a machine gun might not be as simple as changing a box magazine (especially if one is also trying move quickly..) ?

It would be interesting to time how long it takes to change the side drum on say an MG42, vs remove the empty magazine on an FG42 and insert a new one. Given the US logistics situation one can probably assume that discarding empty magazines (to hopefully be retrieved later) would have been viable from time to time.

If the FG42 style weapon had a last round hold open, and a bolt release catch I suspect reloading could be very fast.. Hopefully it would be light enough so a strong solider could hold onto the weapon with his strong hand via the pistol grip and change magazines using his weak hand while moving on the battle field.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I suppose if the pistol round in question is a hot loaded bottle necked cartridge, at some point a solution based on a up loaded pistol round will start to converge on the same performance level(s) as a solution based on a down loaded rifle round I will say I am bit skeptical about using pistol based cartridges at longer ranges in wind based on some time spent observing relatively hot 9x19 mm rounds hitting target back stops some distance from the targets at an outdoor range in high wind, but I suppose a well engineered solution could address this.

Solution:
9x25mm case necked down to .22 caliber to get it up to high enough speeds (with a longer barrel) to buck the wind for long enough to stay accurate within 200m.

Personally I prefer the 50 rnd side drum of the MG 34/42.
The saddle is too heavy and ungainly.

Only problem with the side drum was that it was just a belt holder, not a magazine.

 

[Glyndwr01]

Ideally I would want an auto rifle that was lighter than the BAR, yet still effective as an auto rifle at typical ranges. Perhaps a clean sheet design with an optimized cartridge might achieve that in 1938.

Beardmore-Farquhar Machine Gun

The Beardmore-Farquhar light machine gun has its roots in the Fraquhar-Hill self-loading rifle, developed by 1917 by Mobray G. Farquhar and Arthur Hill. This rifle got as far as being formally adopted by British Army in 1918, but the Armistice put th

www.military.com

15 1/2 lbs with 81 round pan mag (mag spring powered and totally enclosed unlike the Lewis Gun.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Perhaps changing side drum belt containers and loading a belt into a machine gun might not be as simple as changing a box magazine (especially if one is also trying move quickly..) ?

It would be interesting to time how long it takes to change the side drum on say an MG42, vs remove the empty magazine on an FG42 and insert a new one. Given the US logistics situation one can probably assume that discarding empty magazines (to hopefully be retrieved later) would have been viable from time to time.

If the FG42 style weapon had a last round hold open, and a bolt release catch I suspect reloading could be very fast..

The answer to your problem lies in the dish mags of the DP-27 and Lewis gun.

 

[McPherson]

Beardmore-Farquhar Machine Gun

The Beardmore-Farquhar light machine gun has its roots in the Fraquhar-Hill self-loading rifle, developed by 1917 by Mobray G. Farquhar and Arthur Hill. This rifle got as far as being formally adopted by British Army in 1918, but the Armistice put th

www.military.com

15 1/2 lbs with 81 round pan mag (mag spring powered and totally enclosed unlike the Lewis Gun.

Clockwork guns and spring operated guns have timing issues that require good ammunition for consistent impulse and constant mechanical adjustment of headspace and spring tension to ensure good operation. GAS systems are simpler to adjust. You can run garbage ammunition through the guns and dial the pressures in by spindle or needle valve adjustment.

Pan magazines are totally unacceptable once good double feed stick magazines can be made. Or use a windup drum belt as one finds on the Ruger or the MG08/15.

They dump the magazine for a reason:

This is why US troops didn't use drum magazines in Tommy Guns

The "Tommy Gun" used the Colt M1911 grip and its dependable .45-caliber ammunition. Why didn't troops use drum magazines?

www.wearethemighty.com

Now the German top mounted saddle mag might be an option:

MG 15 Saddle Drum magazines and carriier

Gentlemen,From my collection a rare set of three MG 15 saddle drums with their carrier. These carriers were used with the MG 15 ground mount kit.The MG 15 was a German 7.92 mm machine gun designed specifically as a hand manipulated defensive gun for combat aircraft during the early 1930s. By 1941...

gmic.co.uk

View attachment 535571

Using (^^^) that piece of garbage bipod and saddle mag combo is a bad idea. The thing rocks and seesaws making muzzle control almost impossible in the vertical. The bullets get jonced in the can mags and thus misalign to be fed into the action.

Now then...

The requirement for a select fire squad automatic rifle... is

"Design an automatic rifle for WW2 in 1938"

kind of ridiculous when one realizes that the Americans were looking at that...

and

so were the Germans...

Notice the BREN guns?

 

[Blue cat]

Solution:
9x25mm case necked down to .22 caliber to get it up to high enough speeds (with a longer barrel) to buck the wind for long enough to stay accurate within 200m.

That sounds more like a cartridge that a select fire carbine might use than an automatic rifle circa 1938? I suspect the US Army circa 1938 is going to want a longer effective range and probably better penetration for an automatic rifle than such a cartridge would likely provide. Still it might be a nice round for a carbine. I could also see a select fire carbine (perhaps with a heavier barrel and a bi pod ?) filling a niche short range automatic carbine role. Maybe if the US Army also had a belt fed GPMG, that was suitable for squad level use (or also retained the BAR ?) they might see a role for a short range automatic carbine as a support weapon ?

 

[Blue cat]

Clockwork guns and spring operated guns have timing issues that require good ammunition for consistent impulse and constant mechanical adjustment of headspace and spring tension to ensure good operation. GAS systems are simpler to adjust. You can run garbage ammunition through the guns and dial the pressures in by spindle or needle valve adjustment.

Pan magazines are totally unacceptable once good double feed stick magazines can be made. Or use a windup drum belt as one finds on the Ruger or the MG08/15.



Using (^^^) that piece of garbage bipod and saddle mag combo is a bad idea. The thing rocks and seesaws making muzzle control almost impossible in the vertical. The bullets get jonced in the can mags and thus misalign to be fed into the action.

Now then...

View attachment 535582

The requirement for a select fire squad automatic rifle... is

"Design an automatic rifle for WW2 in 1938"

View attachment 535583

kind of riduculous when one realizes that the Americans were looking at that...

View attachment 535584

and

View attachment 535585
so were the Germans...

View attachment 535586

Notice the BREN guns?

I still think a weapon along the lines of an FG42 firing a somewhat less powerful cartridge might have been a useful squad level weapon in the ww2 era One could quibble a bit over some of the details (ie. the location of the magazine, closed bolt vs open bolt operation etc..)

 

[McPherson]

I still think a weapon along the lines of an FG42 firing a somewhat less powerful cartridge might have been a useful squad level weapon in the ww2 era One could quibble a bit over some of the details (ie. the location of the magazine, closed bolt vs open bolt operation etc..)

I am not in disagreement.

I have often argued that if the US took up the entire BRNO line, ZK383, ZB30, ZB50, and ZB53 as a COTS emergency measure, the result would have been organically "good" inside US fire and movement overwatch small unit tactics of WWII.

 

[McPherson]

For grins and giggles, why you should hate the Reising.

This piece of Rube Goldberg junk was designed by a Pro-Japanese guy. (Joke.) Horrible gun to take down and put back together. Rusting was the least issue with this piece of trash.