Decades of Darkness

Highlander

Banned
Going back and reading the parts of your novel that you've posted, Jared, I really picture David Zayas playing the role of your lead detective.


Also, just out of pure curiosity, do you have any comments for the kinda-sorta timeline I started not too long ago?
 
-OMFG INSANE HUGE SNIP-

Well i guess that's why i don't see this world as a dystopia then. Its because our definitions of it differ.I can see where u r coming from with the whole TEH SATAN USA!!!!!!11111one. But personally, all that i can see is a world where the people that got the shit end of the stick of history where the Brits and French, rather than the Germans and Russians as per OTL. And of course were the "enlightened" USA of OTL is a FAR different entity in TTL as well.
However, sadly, my definition of dystopia is MUCH more closely tied to the one of Utopia than urz is. For me a dystopia is the exact opposite of the utopia.
To me a utopia is a world where war, and even violence has never been heard of, where sex is always safe and full-filling, where there are enough resources to last everyone forever, where there is no need for things like hatred, violence and insanity in order to understand the world, where love actually exists beyond the Disney films and mass-media sellers of diamonds rings, and people are always at peace with themselves.
And dystopia to me is the EXACT opposite in every way of this vision. In a dystopic world, the average human being is HATE-FUCKED with white hot knives upon waking up and for the rest of the day, where war and violence are accepted parts of daily life, where the rich cant even find satisfaction with all of their money, where people do UNSPEAKABLE things to themselves their families and their friends, all for the deluded hopes of getting to keep the pain of living away for a few seconds, where even dreams are twisted and evil and children worship death and the more fanatic ones kill themselves for no real reason. A place where sanity never existed, nuclear bombs or other WMDs fall daily, war is eternal and people have no souls, morals, wamrth or even simple life-like-ness left to them. The people of a true dystopia might as well be fucking zombies that dont ever sleep, eat or stop until they drop dead.
To put it simply, i see a line between this "real" world and a utopian/dystopian one. This line is simply whether or not i can look at the conditions of a world and simply shrug them off and say "That's life for ya." Once i am no longer able to say that then the world become utopian/dystopian to me.

But anyways i hope to see more of this and Lands of Red and Gold soon. Merry Christmas Jared.:D:p
 
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It just occurred to me that DoD's USA has been following the Nazi concept of Lebensraum almost to the T. Was that intentional?
 
The frightening thing about the *USA is not how dystopic it is, but how nasty it isn't to those it considers worthy. Even with their perfectly natural, understandable slant towards the ugly side of *American society, go back and read the scenes in the timeline and _The Fox And The Jackal_ that show daily life in the *USA. They're scary, but they're subtle.

Because they hold a mirror up to our faces and force us to see the oppressor inside, they can be mistaken for ordinary. For acceptable. For the natural order of things.

The average *American is just a regular guy (or gal), with a regular job, a nice little home, probably a car and a radio. He (or she) reads the newspaper, thinks pretty ordinary thoughts about it, and sleeps soundly at night.

If that job involves bossing peons around, or that home has a slave cutting the hedge, if that car is shined by another slave and the radio plays minstrel songs, and the newspaper prints scare stories about insurrection in far-off states, and they only sleep soundly because the jackboot is firmly on someone else's throat - well, you can see it's evil because it's being pointed out to you and you have no investment in pretending it isn't.

http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/ take a look around here and think real hard about how pervasive this shit has been in US society - how easily we accepted vicious, brutal racist imagery as normal and even comforting.

It's a thin line, between the reality we call home and that place.
 
The frightening thing about the *USA is not how dystopic it is, but how nasty it isn't to those it considers worthy. Even with their perfectly natural, understandable slant towards the ugly side of *American society, go back and read the scenes in the timeline and _The Fox And The Jackal_ that show daily life in the *USA. They're scary, but they're subtle.

Because they hold a mirror up to our faces and force us to see the oppressor inside, they can be mistaken for ordinary. For acceptable. For the natural order of things.

The average *American is just a regular guy (or gal), with a regular job, a nice little home, probably a car and a radio. He (or she) reads the newspaper, thinks pretty ordinary thoughts about it, and sleeps soundly at night.

If that job involves bossing peons around, or that home has a slave cutting the hedge, if that car is shined by another slave and the radio plays minstrel songs, and the newspaper prints scare stories about insurrection in far-off states, and they only sleep soundly because the jackboot is firmly on someone else's throat - well, you can see it's evil because it's being pointed out to you and you have no investment in pretending it isn't.

http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/ take a look around here and think real hard about how pervasive this shit has been in US society - how easily we accepted vicious, brutal racist imagery as normal and even comforting.

It's a thin line, between the reality we call home and that place.

GOU, I'll bet the hispanics and blacks consigned to slavery would disagree. I think they would rather have freedom and equality than have have whites who realize the evil of what they're doing, but do it anyway. ;)
 
Going back and reading the parts of your novel that you've posted, Jared, I really picture David Zayas playing the role of your lead detective.

Hmm. Didn't know much about him, but he sounds like he's got the acting talent. I'd pictured Solana as someone with somewhat darker skin (he's got some indio heritage, too), but Zayas could probably do a good job.

Also, just out of pure curiosity, do you have any comments for the kinda-sorta timeline I started not too long ago?

Is this the world outside of Texaverse thread here?

If it is, then no, I haven't read it yet. (I only found it now because I searched for threads you've started). I've had limited time online for the last few months, and so I miss a lot of threads.

However, sadly, my definition of dystopia is MUCH more closely tied to the one of Utopia than urz is. For me a dystopia is the exact opposite of the utopia.

Here is where we disagree, because I don't think that there is, realistically, a utopian world possible either. One person's utopia could be another person's idea of a living hell. But that's probably a discussion topic for another time.

But anyways i hope to see more of this and Lands of Red and Gold soon. Merry Christmas Jared.:D:p

Thanks. More of LRG is coming, once I work off the New Year hangover (metaphorically speaking) and can edit the drafts. There are more Tales posts in the works too, one of which has similar editing requirements.

It just occurred to me that DoD's USA has been following the Nazi concept of Lebensraum almost to the T. Was that intentional?

If it follows ANY Nazi laws to a tee like that, then yes it is.

Well, there's certainly a fair degree of overlap, although the *USA didn't deliberately set out to eliminate urban populations of their enemies by starvation. They do use fire-squads at times (eg Colombia), who do commit massacres and starvation, but that is to suppress resistance, not to eliminate a population already suppressed.

That said, it wasn't a deliberate copy of the Nazi view of Lebensraum. Both the idea of Lebensraum and the *US attitudes arose from historical antecedents. Lebensraum was based on the older German nationalistic idea of Drang nach Osten (drive to the east, more or less).

The *US expansionism was based on OTL's Manifest Destiny. Of course, this is a nastier version of what was done in Manifest Destiny, but even what was done in OTL was still extremely harsh, to say the least. And it started in the very early days of the *USA.

Does anyone know, without using google, who said the following quote when the USA was still under the Articles of Confederation?

"Our confederacy must be viewed as the nest from which All America, North and South, is to be peopled. We should take care too not think it in the interest of that great continent to press too soon on the Spaniards. Those countries cannot be in better hands. My fear is that they are too feeble to hold them till our population can be sufficiently advanced to gain it from them piece by piece."

http://www.ferris.edu/JIMCROW/ take a look around here and think real hard about how pervasive this shit has been in US society - how easily we accepted vicious, brutal racist imagery as normal and even comforting.

It's a thin line, between the reality we call home and that place.

Quite. While the DoD USA is obviously worse in its system than what happened in OTL, I didn't create it out of a vacuum - just based it on existing trends or practices and how they would likely have continued in the changed circumstances of the DoD world.

GOU, I'll bet the hispanics and blacks consigned to slavery would disagree. I think they would rather have freedom and equality than have have whites who realize the evil of what they're doing, but do it anyway. ;)

Quite possibly. The quote I have in mind is actually from How Few Remain, where it is attributed to Frederick Douglass. I presume that Turtledove based it on something which Douglass really said, but I've never found the original quote.

"A slave with a bad master wants a good master. A slave with a good master wants to be free."
 

Highlander

Banned
Is this the world outside of Texaverse thread here?

If it is, then no, I haven't read it yet. (I only found it now because I searched for threads you've started). I've had limited time online for the last few months, and so I miss a lot of threads.

Truth be told, there isn't anything really concrete written yet. I have most of the concepts down, but I don't know where to take a lot of the world. Just kind of enjoying making faux media for it.
 
I have heard dystopia utopia arguments to long to be much interested anymore frankly.

I do have some question regarding Portugal Post War. At first glance I owuld think national morale would be high. They have regained a significant Colonial empire at relatively little cost. The estblishment of Equador under the new Emperor takes some sting out of the defeat in ther Brazilian Civil War. Finally they are in a position to Play the *USA and the Reich off to maintain greatyer independence.

However this raises certain questions.

How stable is the new colonial empire? If I recall correctly several of the territories rewarded to Lisbon have neverbefore been under Portueguese control. Are they still using the Vice Kingdom system of Governance?

The new Braganca state was established in no small part by an *American belief that it would be a client state in the same vein as the NFS. However unlike the NFS it it is not so isolated andhas at least the mother country willing to support it. So what is the situation like in Equador, a strictly *American client or does Lisbon have influenmce as well? Furthermore is it Pariah State or recognized as a legitmate nation beyond the *American sphere.

What sort of position is Lisbon in internatianally POst War as an American Ally and a Eurpoean nation outside of the GEEU?

Incidentally how are the Nephites doing(on and off Vancouver Island)?
 
Will the rest of the world ever unite against this USA when they eventually start enslaving white nations since they got over the shock of enslaving the British Columbians ?
 
Does anyone know, without using google, who said the following quote when the USA was still under the Articles of Confederation?

"Our confederacy must be viewed as the nest from which All America, North and South, is to be peopled. We should take care too not think it in the interest of that great continent to press too soon on the Spaniards. Those countries cannot be in better hands. My fear is that they are too feeble to hold them till our population can be sufficiently advanced to gain it from them piece by piece."

Hrm. Jefferson, talked about continental union occasionally. Him?
 
Truth be told, there isn't anything really concrete written yet. I have most of the concepts down, but I don't know where to take a lot of the world. Just kind of enjoying making faux media for it.

Well, I can't make any promises since I'm rather short of time of late, but I'll try to find time to have a look at it and let you know if I have any suggestions.

I do have some question regarding Portugal Post War. At first glance I owuld think national morale would be high. They have regained a significant Colonial empire at relatively little cost. The estblishment of Equador under the new Emperor takes some sting out of the defeat in ther Brazilian Civil War. Finally they are in a position to Play the *USA and the Reich off to maintain greatyer independence.

Overall the sense of national morale and pride in Portugal is pretty good post-war, yes. They've taken a few losses, and Germany is a rather big, scary threat, but they do feel that they've managed to fend off the Reich during a war when no-one else in Europe really managed it.

However this raises certain questions.

How stable is the new colonial empire? If I recall correctly several of the territories rewarded to Lisbon have neverbefore been under Portueguese control. Are they still using the Vice Kingdom system of Governance?

Some of these territories are stable, some aren't. Without going into too many details, some of the colonies don't mind Portugal (too much) as a ruler since the other prospects are worse. Some are resentful. Some are potentially stable but are being destabilised thanks to outside interference - the Silent War at work.

The new Braganca state was established in no small part by an *American belief that it would be a client state in the same vein as the NFS. However unlike the NFS it it is not so isolated andhas at least the mother country willing to support it. So what is the situation like in Equador, a strictly *American client or does Lisbon have influenmce as well?

Equador is a satellite state in some senses of the word. It is heavily under *US influence whenever the *US tries to exercise its power. However, there's a tacit understanding that the *USA will only exercise its influence in certain areas: defence and foreign affairs, mostly. Internally, Equador is mostly left alone.

Lisbon has considerable cultural links with Equador, but since Portugal is itself largely dependent on *American goodwill, that doesn't really translate into much political influence.

Furthermore is it Pariah State or recognized as a legitmate nation beyond the *American sphere.

It's seen as being about as legitimate a nation as say, OTL's Soviet-dominated Poland was post-WW2.

What sort of position is Lisbon in internatianally POst War as an American Ally and a Eurpoean nation outside of the GEEU?

Short version: in a delicate position.

Slightly longer version: trying to cultivate friendly relations with Aragon to allow a local balance of power on the Iberian peninsula (against Castile) while relying on the *USA to back it up if Germany gets too pushy or too involved in Castile and/or Aragon.

In its cultural and economic relations with Europe, Portugal is still reasonably well involved. There's sporting links, and a reasonable amount of trade - although Portugal is outside tariff walls - but still, Portugal looks to Equador and the *USA in some respects.

Incidentally how are the Nephites doing(on and off Vancouver Island)?

The Island is a reasonably prosperous micro-nation, mostly because it has beome like Switzerland in some ways. That is, something of a tax haven. And lots of chocolate production; the Island pays for first pick of caco plantation production from the tropical *US territories (and Portuguese African plantations), and turns them into premium production.

The Nephites turned to chocolate production, incidentally, because it is something which they have no religious objection too, unlike alcohol or tea or coffee. It's not just because something like Switzerland has to show up in every timeline.

Outside of the Island, the Nephites are still a reasonable percentage of the population of Deseret, and have some adherents elsewhere in the world. They're also among the more determined churches who are sending missionaries into Africa.

Will the rest of the world ever unite against this USA when they eventually start enslaving white nations since they got over the shock of enslaving the British Columbians ?

That would depend on the circumstances. Up until this point, the *USA has largley gotten away with its atrocities because they are happening in its own hemisphere, which is a long way away from the other powers in Europe. If the *USA starts trying to project power into other "white" nations, that will also bring them into more direct conflict with the other superpowers. Which will produce all sorts of reactions, mostly involving things painted green and which have lots of firepower.

Hrm. Jefferson, talked about continental union occasionally. Him?

Yep-my brother looked it up last night after I guessed that since Tom Jeff also spoke of aquiring Cuba. :rolleyes:;)

Yup, Thomas Jefferson is the man. He was one voice (although not the only) who was already speaking of the United States taking over the whole of the Americas. And this was just after the American Revolution...
 
The Nephites turned to chocolate production, incidentally, because it is something which they have no religious objection too, unlike alcohol or tea or coffee. It's not just because something like Switzerland has to show up in every timeline.
:confused:Chocolate has caffeine and other alkaloids. Oh. Doing a quick google search suggests that Mormons DO eat choclate OTL. OK, I'm confused, but not by you.:)
 
Are any updates in the works, by chance, Jared?

Yes. I've received another instalment from tukk323 about the drug trade in the post-war world. The delay in this one is at my end. Time to review posts is unfortunately rather limited at the moment, thanks to certain other highly enjoyable but rather time-intensive commitment. (One commitment in particular).

There are other potential updates in the works where I've discussed the background and content with the authors, but nothing which I've received from them yet.

Damnit, I was hoping you'd bumped it to say you'd made another map. :mad:

Er... and as my first post here, frickin excellent job, Jared.

Merci.
 
Yes. I've received another instalment from tukk323 about the drug trade in the post-war world. The delay in this one is at my end.

Can I do a post about the new provinces/territory of Germany and the Russian Federation please?...

Time to review posts is unfortunately rather limited at the moment, thanks to certain other highly enjoyable but rather time-intensive commitment. (One commitment in particular).

:D
 
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