Suppose for a moment that the Vampire has a higher priority than otl (probably at the expense of the Hornet) and due to this enters service at the same time as the Gloster Meteor. What, admittedly minor, impact would this have on the air war over Britain and Europe? Obviously more of the V1's will be intercepted. How does this affect post war development? Could we see Sea Vampires with the British Pacific Fleet, and if so how does the USN react?
De Havilland Vampire enters service in 1944
- Thread starter Peg Leg Pom
- Start date
Low hanging fruit for a POD is Hives at Rolls Royce switches engine factories with Spenser Wilks at Rover earlier say 1941 rather than April 1943 (following the decision made in Dec 42)
Rover had been working with power jets to develop their jet engines but were struggling and the relationship was not good and was going downhill
Rolls Royce had been working to turn the Merlin into the Meteor tank engine but where struggling
So Rolls Royce ended up supporting Power jets and built the first production series of jet engines in 1943 and Rover ended up producing the Meteor in sufficient numbers to allow the Cromwell to enter mass production.
If the change is made earlier then both British Jet engine development and afv engine development enjoy an earlier improvement.
The impact of the British Pacific Fleet having and employing jet aircraft in the latter stages of WW 2 would be interesting. I wonder if this speeds up Naval development a few years.
Perhaps an earlier Rolls Royce switch with Rover has a Nene powered Vampire by 1944
Later versions enjoyed the advantages of 'reheat' (OTL trailed in a RR Welland on a Meteor 1 in late 1944) first run in 1943 and incorporated in late war versions of the Vampire and Sea Vampire in 1945.
Later versions enjoyed the advantages of 'reheat' (OTL trailed in a RR Welland on a Meteor 1 in late 1944) first run in 1943 and incorporated in late war versions of the Vampire and Sea Vampire in 1945.
And in the East you have Stalin stamping his foot and yelling Gimme Jets now. I want em all. I want em all, I want em all, and I want em now.
To be fair Hap Arnold and Admiral King are probably doing the same thing in Washington.
To be fair Hap Arnold and Admiral King are probably doing the same thing in Washington.
Meh! Send him more King Cobras
I can see the BPF sending its carriers out to support the 4 US Carrier groups providing jet interceptor support rather than standing up its own carrier group
You'd need Venoms more than Vampires to get any serious speed benefit from re-heat. Getting to the Venom more quickly by having the Vampire with thinner, swept wings from the start could be another very interesting change.
That's probably a bit too much of a jump for an aircraft that design work started on in 1941. You could possibly get a prototype Venom by 1945 though. Remember it's wartime so going with something that's good enough and can be done reasonably quickly is a better choice than something that's "perfect" but will take 5 years to get right.
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As well as Swept wing Hawker Sea Hawks and for the Americans Grumman F9F Cougars.
A 1-engined jet fighter entering the service in 1944 should've been a wake-up call for many British airframe makers, especially Suparmarine, that wasted all the good reputation (gained with Spitfire ) by making fighters like Spiteful/Seafang, Attacker (this one was the kicker), Swift, Scimitar.
The Vampire didn’t use a RR powerplant. When Henry Tizard came to DH and (informally) suggested that they should create an aircraft that could take advantage of the new developments in jet engines he also suggested that they create an engine as well. Frank Halford duly created the H.1 (Goblin) which was first run in April 1942. The first Meteor flight actually used Goblin engines since the Derwent wasn’t quite ready. In contrast, the idea for the Nene came about when Hooker examined American attempts at 4000 lbf engines in 1944. This, combined with the knowledge of the 3000 lbf Goblin made a larger development than the 2000 lbf Derwent desirable. So a Nene engine coming earlier, while certainly not impossible, doesn’t seem to have an easy, obvious POD. What’s more, though later variants of the Vampire were equipped with the Nene, the extra power did not provide extra performance as the Nene required air to be fed to the rear of the impeller, which required extra ducting and disrupted airflow.
So, though it might be possible to move up the introduction of the Nene, it would take a fair bit of work and wouldn’t lead to a much improved Vampire. IMO, it would be simpler to try and work to bring the aircraft and engine as is further forward.
IOTL the Vampire made its test flight on 20 September, 1943, just over 6 months after the Meteor (5 May). The Vampire had largely been seen by the MAP as an experimental design, where the Meteor was meant for production from the start. I cannot demonstrate that this is the case, but it’s possible that had the MAP intended to produce the Vampire earlier, this might have shaved a month or so off the time to get the Vampire into the air. Further, the Vampires first flight was delayed by the requirement to send one of the only working Goblin engines to the US for use in the XP-80 program. De Havilland had already delivered one Goblin for the XP-80, but when the engineer who had brought it said that the inlet duct skin was too thin, but had been ignored. Thus, on test the inlets collapsed and the skin went through the engine. De Havilland donated the engine intended for the Vampire, delaying the Vampires first flight. Some of the dates for this story are a little difficult to line up, but if true, avoiding it would allow the Vampire to fly perhaps another month early. That would put the first flight sometime in July 1943.
The Meteor had its first production order of 100 approved even before first flight. Its production design was approved by Jan 1944, 8 months after first flight. The Vampire had to wait until all its prototypes were flying and issues had been worked out before it got a production order in May 1944, 8 months after its first flight. Had a similar priority been applied to the Vampire as the Meteor than it too would probably have had a production order around the time of the first flight (July 1943 if my ideas to speed it up worked out). It would then have had its production tooling being worked on as the design was being adjusted and tested. A more expensive and risky, but faster, development method. Based on the Meteors time frame the production model could presumably have been approved by March 1944. However, IOTL the Vampire took 11 months to go from production order to Production design flying rather than 8 for the Meteor. Probably due to the fact that De Havilland were full up and production was largely handled by English Electric. Had to same problem applied here then the first production aircraft flying would have been in May 1944, rather than March. It’s likely that the first batch would be small, and used to work out the kinks, as was done with Meteor.
The Meteor spent most of the first half of 1944 being evaluated by a tactical flight before being cleared in July. If the same process was followed with the Vampire with a similar time frame then the Vampire might not be cleared until November. However, with previous experience with jets maybe some time can be knocked off of this? In either case, we are looking late in 1944 for entry into service.
I kind of doubt we see Sea Vampires with the BPF, for two reasons.
For starters even with Vampires coming into service with the RAF in late 1944, I don’t think the timing works out. IOTL the Admiralty became interested in the type after carrier trials in late 1945. In late 1944 and early 1945 I am not sure there are either carriers or Vampires with enough availability to carry out such trials and I am not sure they would have been approved even if they were.
Second, I doubt they would accept the disruption required to take on a new aircraft type unproven in carrier operations and requiring different maintenance requirements. Even getting aircraft would probably have been difficult at this point given RAF priority and getting a pool of pilots used to the type, much less mechanics used to working with them would take time. Probably not something they would have accepted before the end of the war.
So, cool as it would have been, I don’t think this is likely.
While top speed at altitude was not increased due to the extra intakes impacting the critical mach number of the airframe a Nene would still allow for a higher thrust to weight ratio
So other performance aspects of a Nene powered Vampire (which was used in Australian and French produced Vampires / Mistrals) would be improved over a Goblin - and the implications of increased and earlier developments of the Nene with regards to use in other aircraft - it being the most powerful engine of its day cannot be overstated
Nothing wrong with the Goblin named apparently because "It gobbles up all the fuel" - Halfords design the H1 which was later named the Goblin was basically unchanged for 13 years of production.
Its just the idea of an earlier Nene makes me all warm and fuzzy - yes I'm odd like that around aircraft engines
So other performance aspects of a Nene powered Vampire (which was used in Australian and French produced Vampires / Mistrals) would be improved over a Goblin - and the implications of increased and earlier developments of the Nene with regards to use in other aircraft - it being the most powerful engine of its day cannot be overstated
Nothing wrong with the Goblin named apparently because "It gobbles up all the fuel" - Halfords design the H1 which was later named the Goblin was basically unchanged for 13 years of production.
Its just the idea of an earlier Nene makes me all warm and fuzzy - yes I'm odd like that around aircraft engines
No judgement. I like the Nene too. I am just not sure it’s the best option for an early Vampire. That said, I would still read that TL.
I wouldn't expect more than a handful of Sea Vampires to reach the fleet and probably not the Fleet Carriers near Japan. I could possibly see there being a squadron on one of the Light Fleet Carriers supporting the Pacific Fleet right at the end of the war.
There are the four Colossus class that commissioned during 1945 and were undergoing sea trials and then working up early in 1945 before being sent to join the British Pacific Fleet in August.
Either, or both.
Certainly the majority produced would go to the RAF but a small number of Sea Vampires is possible if the will is there. Even a single flight of Sea Vampires on one of the carriers in the Pacific before the end of the war would have more of an impact on things later on than a whole wing of Vampires operational in Belgium in 1945. Neither changes the outcome of the air war but the effect on the post war years could be interesting.