DBWI: Superman and Batman with different archenemies

[Night Gaul]

Honestly, it would be hard to duplicate Strange. Not only is he both a physical and mental challenge for Batman, his psychological expertise allows him to understand the Dark Knight and get under his skin the way few can.

I wonder if it might be possible to introduce someone like Bane earlier.

 

[Vahktang]

allows him to understand the Dark Knight and get under his skin the way few can.

Which comes into play for the first more modern arch villain: Red Hood.
Yeah, introduced last decade but at least in this century.
The writing on ‘The Return of Red Hood’ storyline was very well done, and kept many guessing. (The art left a bit to be desired and there are those that argue the lesser art was on purpose. I do not agree with that idea, though).
The reveal was properly shocking, a former Robin, all grown up, knowing Batman, his tactics, friends, contacts, equipment, strategy, better than Batman knows himself was conveyed almost chillingly. As strong and similarly trained as Batman, but younger, hungrier and with an as strong but different obsession.
My favorite scene:
When Batman and Red Hood are fighting and Bats is on the ropes and goes:
“I taught you everything you know, but I didn’t teach you everything I know.”
And then his reversal fails!
And Hood is like:
“Yes you did. You were a very good teacher.”
Then the page and a half of Hood going off on Bats’ training, some iconic scenes, but from a different viewpoint that makes it all dark and kind of icky.
Robin was quite young at the time when introduced after all. Some pointed out ‘child soldier’ training and the story was kind of slanted that way.
But he is defeated and escapes, to return in “The Buried Batman.” Six months of in all the Batman titles and various side issues and guest stars in other heroes’ comics and nobody knew it was not actually Batman doing Batman, Bruce Wayne, et al.
And 99.9% of the fans that say ‘I knew it all along’ are lying. You would literally have to be Batman to figure it out for before the 5th month.
And less than 10 panels with no word or thought balloons scattered almost randomly in all of those issues of the actual Batman buried alive, with necessary equipment to keep him alive, and he had to dig himself out of the grave.
I still get goose bumps.
Next up: Superman’s modern arch nemesis.

 

[Vahktang]

Superman’s modern arch nemesis is an oldie and a newbie.
Introduced in this decade, 2012, Brainiac, or, in this incarnation, aka, Brainiac 69, female fetish Brainiac, Fan Service Brainiac, etc, etc, and who’s costume/appearance can be seen in many conventions worn by (rather brave) cosplayers.
Despite the reputation, it is an excellent villain, once again knowing the hero (but not intimately, that is a fan fiction only thing. A lot of fan fiction), but still with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. And near equal to Superman himself.
This Brainac uses Its’ technological abilities to Cylon bodies, making them specifically so that even the advanced senses of Superman cannot detect a difference. After doing Lois Lane, Batman, and others, and their interactions with Clark, we got something we had never seen before, paranoid Superman, doubting himself, his abilities, close to an existential crisis as issue after issue went on.
Then It subsumed the Superman robots so that Clark has to destroy them all.
While It turns the Fortress of Solitude against him, subtly at first, until he has to flee and contemplated destroying it.
And despite the naysayers, I thought this scenario made sense. It is a Tenth level intellect, It freakin’ shrinks cities, getting past Kryptonian cloaking technology is undoubtedly possible for it.
Favorite part: Superman nearly killing his pal, Jimmy Olson, when Clark noticed he had stopped using contractions. And Clark never figured out it was a Brianiac as Jimmy’s girlfriend who had convinced Jimmy to do so and never appeared in front of Clark. Jimmy had an almost frightened look in the artwork while interacting with Superman after this for a long time, though dialogue did not change.
And then, the climax.
Alien vs Robot Alien, Clark divested of resources, planned allies turning out to be Cylonned or just disagreeing with his recent behavior and paranoia, and then Braniac’s monologue : “This was not vengeance for your past defeats of me. I am incapable of feeling that. The only emotion I am programmed with is curiosity.
That is all this is, me studying you.”
And Clark just loses it, his emotions betraying him, seeing what he had done, where he had gone, given up the Justice League, etc, etc.
And then Brainac goes: “Analysis complete,” and leaves.
There are those that say this was anti-climatic. They are wrong. It fit so very well as to what happened before, what Clark is like, his position in the universe, and how he is seen, how he sees himself. I thought it was great.
Sometimes the good guy has to lose.
Even Superman.
As and then the Reboot negates almost all of it.
Bah.
And, no, It should not be brought back for another session of analysis.
Now, It as a LGBQ icon, I do not agree with. It is an It because it is a robot. It makes different bodies of different genders as part of It’s plans, not as any manifestation of gender or sexuality. It is not programmed for any of that and AI does not automatically manifest that, despite what hopeful and well meaning fans maintain. More power to them, of course, but they are reading too much of themselves into it, missing the narrative.
But that’s my own $.02, of course.

 

[Dolan]

That is all this is, me studying you.”
And Clark just loses it, his emotions betraying him, seeing what he had done, where he had gone, given up the Justice League, etc, etc.
And then Brainac goes: “Analysis complete,” and leaves.
There are those that say this was anti-climatic. They are wrong. It fit so very well as to what happened before, what Clark is like, his position in the universe, and how he is seen, how he sees himself. I thought it was great.
Sometimes the good guy has to lose.
Even Superman.

And said Brainiac do not follow up from this (psychological) victory over Superman because at the same time, it was Lex Luthor (and Batman) who noticed that several people supposedly had a sudden body double and there's a pretty big change in Big Blue Alien Boyscout's behavior as Superman delved deeper into paranoia.

Of course, Lex ended up catching up to Brainiac's plan, but him ended up failed to deduce that Clark Kent is a different guy than Superman, to the point that Lex, while giving Clark Kent a two weeks of paid vacation time and told him "he is all ears to his problem", decides that Superman could use some humiliation as long as there's no civilian damages, something which resulted in Lex (and Batman) "merely" playing damage control at the sideline like neutralizing several Rampaging Superman Robots and ensuring the real Lois and Jimmy being safe (and Batman actually hacking into Brainiac's ship, making her dropped the original plan to destroy Superman once and for all because her core is cybernetically threatened). There is an underlying understanding that if Brainiac actually threatened real harm to others, Lex (and Batman) will actually jump out to confront the bad guy.

That part actually resulted in Batman diagnosing Lex Luthor having a psychological blind spot, that he just can't think Superman and Clark Kent is the very same person. It was a kind of morbid, but still funny way to show that there's still an underlying rivalry between Superman, Batman, and Lex Luthor, after all was said and done.

 

[Vahktang]

That part actually resulted in Batman diagnosing Lex Luthor having a psychological blind spot,

I did like that bit.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

And speaking of other, potential arch-enemy to Superman, what about the most notorious Former (Golden Age) Hero-turned-Villain, Aquaman?

He's one of the few Villains who canonically managed to beat down Superman in the later's term (he's just as physically strong as Superman), and more so because he has magic-based powers and Superman is just as magically vulnerable to magic as a normal human being (albeit with increased mental fortitude).

Especially because the event that turned the Atlantean Warrior-King into his path of Villainy, at least in the Silver Age, was the US Government accidentally tests their hydrogen bomb on top of an Atlantean underwater city, causing said city's destruction and Aquaman swore revenge against America, and what represents the American Way better than big blue boy scout himself, so the Atlantean will focus mostly on Superman instead of being just a recurring hard-hitting villain that tormented most DC Heroes (mostly those of Magic-based like Shazam and Wonder Woman)?

 

[eldandythedoubter]

And speaking of other, potential arch-enemy to Superman, what about the most notorious Former (Golden Age) Hero-turned-Villain, Aquaman?

He's one of the few Villains who canonically managed to beat down Superman in the later's term (he's just as physically strong as Superman), and more so because he has magic-based powers and Superman is just as magically vulnerable to magic as a normal human being (albeit with increased mental fortitude).

Especially because the event that turned the Atlantean Warrior-King into his path of Villainy, at least in the Silver Age, was the US Government accidentally tests their hydrogen bomb on top of an Atlantean underwater city, causing said city's destruction and Aquaman swore revenge against America, and what represents the American Way better than big blue boy scout himself, so the Atlantean will focus mostly on Superman instead of being just a recurring hard-hitting villain that tormented most DC Heroes (mostly those of Magic-based like Shazam and Wonder Woman)?

OOC: Oh god, if this happened during the new 52, I'd probably still keep DC on as the best publisher for the 10's.

 

[Nivek]

And speaking of other, potential arch-enemy to Superman, what about the most notorious Former (Golden Age) Hero-turned-Villain, Aquaman?

If people call Luthor the Anti-hero, Aquaman is the example of Anti-Villain, yeah he is vicious and his crusaded against the 'surface/dry' world is very brutal, yet learning all the actions(ie the good green aesop) people have do against seas and aquatic life show Aquaman in his extremism..is kinda right at the hard times

 

[Dolan]

If people call Luthor the Anti-hero, Aquaman is the example of Anti-Villain, yeah he is vicious and his crusaded against the 'surface/dry' world is very brutal, yet learning all the actions(ie the good green aesop) people have do against seas and aquatic life show Aquaman in his extremism..is kinda right at the hard times

They're playing that angle when Aquaman lashed out against the US Government... Or most other Heroes... Other than Wonder Woman, who played more about Atlantis vs Themiscyra rivalry.

But yeah, Lex Luthor VS Aquaman arc in the 2010s is one of the few arcs where the readers are definitely pinning down for the (Anti)Villain to win against the (Anti)Hero. I mean, come on, Lexcorp accepting US Government contract to recover the lost Nuclear Missile Submarine is understandable, but when the nuclear sub was found accidentally getting around too close with the Atlantean City of Tritonis and said Captain fired their torpedoes towards what is basically helpless Atlantean civilians, having the Atlanteans merely imprisoned the crew and confiscate the nuclear missiles is actually far tamer than what Aquaman has done before (tsunami on the East Coast anyone?).

Hell, Aquaman actually initially agreed to return the crew unharmed in exchange for Lex basically repairing the damages on the city, but the US Government wanted their nuclear missiles back and ordered the attack on Atlantis. Aquaman is definitely the one in the right here.

 

[volantredx]

Honestly, the best Batman villains to be made into his archenemies are people who are now villains for other heroes, Catwoman and the Riddler. Riddler is easy, he's just campy enough to play a good foil to Batman and he's as smart if not smarter than Batman and Strange. Yes he fits better now as a Green Arrow villain, but that move was largely to give Arrow an archvillain. So he's effective in that role and he'd be as cerebral a challenge as Strange if a little bit wackier.

Catwoman on the other hand is a bit more interesting. She was moved to being a Wonder Woman villain shortly after the show to avoid having the heroic Batman be in a relationship with a criminal due to the Comic's Code deciding this somehow would corrupt the youth or something. Now granted her and Diana have a lot of fun moments in comic history, and at least in the last decade have been really leaning into what could only be called the slowest burn will they won't they storyline in comic book history, but if she stayed as one of Batman's villains and had the focus be one their feelings for one another it'd be an interesting shift for the tone of Batman. Instead of a matter of him dealing with mass murderers or various mental cases, it'd almost be like a noir plotline where the two dance around each other with their feelings and their morality clashing constantly.

 

[redjirachi]

Well Call me Mr. Obscure, because I think that the Joker would be a good archenemy for Batman. Granted, what few appearances he did have just got goofier and goofier I personally think that with a little changes he could’ve been at least a contender for Batman’s archenemy.

I don't even understand why they spared the Joker in the first issue when they barely even use him. Still, I'll take him over the overused Metallo

 

[West]

Well one villan that would work well for Super man is hal Jorden

and yes I get it, Hal Jordan is a way to show people what John Stewart could have been like if he had a bad teacher who wanted to corrupt him, and the dangers of blind loyalty and obedience.

Hals loyalty to sinestro, and Johns loyalty to Katma tui and their relationships are compared and contrasted with Hal choosing to be exiled with his teacher dispite being innocent because of his loyalty and becoming his right hand man in the sinestro corps compared with John's loyalty to Katma in maintaining the green lantern corps.

I would keep Guy Gardner as he is, having this total jerkass be earths representative of the blue lantern corps you know the universes medics and first aid just makes him funnier.

 

[Alstein]

Recent- Manhunter (Kate Spencer version) could make a great enemy for Batman, especially with the police brutality in the news. Even moreso as she's someone who originally admired Batman until she decided he was too soft.

 

[West]

Another bat man villan you can bump up is Jenna Duffy or the Carpenter.

Woman is basically the saw franchize before it became a thing, I mean i get why she doesnt get out of the comics often because her stuff is always the darkest of the issues but if your looking for a stone cold psycho she's your girl. There is a reason why they used her in the second Noland movie the woman is an agent of chaos.

 

[brokenrobot00]

Catwoman on the other hand is a bit more interesting. She was moved to being a Wonder Woman villain shortly after the show to avoid having the heroic Batman be in a relationship with a criminal due to the Comic's Code deciding this somehow would corrupt the youth or something.

I always thought this left a big hole in Batman Comics as well although it was a boon for Wonder Woman as Catwoman became Diana's best frenemy in a lot of ways as Selina as a character followed her own personal code and was sometimes an ally and sometimes an opponent. Writers and artist were also quick to create a love triangle between Steve Trevor, Selina and Diana too and it was complicated because Catwoman was often portrayed sympathetically and as having a lot in common with Steve. Also it started a terrific rivalry between Catwoman and Cheetah. Batman lost its top femme fatale though and although writers tried having Talia Al Ghul, Nocturna, and a resurrected Kathy Kane try and fit the bill but never really felt right. Paul Dini wanted to bring Catwoman back into the Bat fold for the Animated Series but for whatever reason wasn't allowed to. So he created Roxy Rocket instead who seemed like a simple thrill seeker at first but would later be fleshed out in later episodes. She was so popular as Batman's foil and sometimes squeeze that she was brought into the comic and been a mainstay there ever since. She's not exactly the same as Catwoman but I think at this point I might like her even more. It would have been really difficult bringing that character back after such a long absence though.

 

[volantredx]

Another bat man villan you can bump up is Jenna Duffy or the Carpenter.

Woman is basically the saw franchize before it became a thing, I mean i get why she doesnt get out of the comics often because her stuff is always the darkest of the issues but if your looking for a stone cold psycho she's your girl. There is a reason why they used her in the second Noland movie the woman is an agent of chaos.

I think the issue with her, and a fair number of Bat's villains is that she's clinically insane. Like as dangerous as she is even Batman recognizes that she's not fully in control of her actions. There's often a note of tragedy to her stories of a brilliant young woman who due to things outside her control has lost the ability to actually function in society. Bruce even points out that he often struggles to fight the likes of Carpenter or Two-Face the way he would handle Strange or Penguin or the various mobsters for that very reason. Though I suppose it could work if the Batman story was painted as a tragic struggle between Batman trying to bring order to a world where random chance can decide a lot about a person, which was sort of what the film was about. So it could work, though it'd make the mythos even more dark and tragic than it already is.

I always thought this left a big hole in Batman Comics as well although it was a boon for Wonder Woman as Catwoman became Diana's best frenemy in a lot of ways as Selina as a character followed her own personal code and was sometimes an ally and sometimes an opponent. Writers and artist were also quick to create a love triangle between Steve Trevor, Selina and Diana too and it was complicated because Catwoman was often portrayed sympathetically and as having a lot in common with Steve. Also it started a terrific rivalry between Catwoman and Cheetah. Batman lost its top femme fatale though and although writers tried having Talia Al Ghul, Nocturna, and a resurrected Kathy Kane try and fit the bill but never really felt right. Paul Dini wanted to bring Catwoman back into the Bat fold for the Animated Series but for whatever reason wasn't allowed to. So he created Roxy Rocket instead who seemed like a simple thrill seeker at first but would later be fleshed out in later episodes. She was so popular as Batman's foil and sometimes squeeze that she was brought into the comic and been a mainstay there ever since. She's not exactly the same as Catwoman but I think at this point I might like her even more. It would have been really difficult bringing that character back after such a long absence though.

While Roxy is great I think what sets her and Catwoman apart is that Catwoman is actually a true criminal while Roxy really isn't. As Bruce points out in several different places, Roxy is really only guilty of property damage and reckless endangerment, things Batman is also often guilty of. Even her backstory is pretty similar to Bruce, as a rich heiress who turned to thrill-seeking out of a sense of abandonment from her rich parents. Alfred even has a line in the show that was basically "the difference between her and you is a sense of purpose". Meanwhile, Catwoman couldn't have been more different from Bruce, having grown up in the slums and stealing to feed herself. So she and Bruce would have more of an opposites attract sort of thing vs his attraction to Roxy being based on the freedom she represents.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

They're playing that angle when Aquaman lashed out against the US Government... Or most other Heroes... Other than Wonder Woman, who played more about Atlantis vs Themiscyra rivalry.

But yeah, Lex Luthor VS Aquaman arc in the 2010s is one of the few arcs where the readers are definitely pinning down for the (Anti)Villain to win against the (Anti)Hero. I mean, come on, Lexcorp accepting US Government contract to recover the lost Nuclear Missile Submarine is understandable, but when the nuclear sub was found accidentally getting around too close with the Atlantean City of Tritonis and said Captain fired their torpedoes towards what is basically helpless Atlantean civilians, having the Atlanteans merely imprisoned the crew and confiscate the nuclear missiles is actually far tamer than what Aquaman has done before (tsunami on the East Coast anyone?).

Hell, Aquaman actually initially agreed to return the crew unharmed in exchange for Lex basically repairing the damages on the city, but the US Government wanted their nuclear missiles back and ordered the attack on Atlantis. Aquaman is definitely the one in the right here.

Well, the US Government in DC, despite being a rather reasonable authority figure in most cases, seems to be actively trying to screw over Atlantis and Aquaman in particular.

Said issues are definitely the best portrayal Lex Luthor as the cynical mirror of Superman too, where Superman stands for the Ideal version of an American Hero, a middle-class guy standing for Truth, Justice, and The American Way, Lex Luthor is the twisted mirror of the Ideal, belonging to the elite corporates, standing for his own Fame, Profit, and Nationalistic to a fault, he was only considered to be amongst the "Superheroes" by the very fact that most of his enemies are worse than him, and when your enemies are literally superpowered aliens hell-bent on conquering the earth, demonic entities trying to wipe out civilization, or someone who tried to bring out the Apocalypse, you would definitely cheer for the Greedy Megalomaniac that fights on the side of humanity.

Sure, how much Lex is being a Greedy Megalomaniac, how much the hidden heart of gold he'll show, and how deep (or comically petty) his hatred to Superman is kind of depending on the writer. Sure, writers nowadays tend to play his ranting about Superman mostly on comical terms, and during the "Truth" story arc, when Superman's secret identity as Clark Kent is revealed, Lex Luthor was surprisingly jovial about it, merely asking his friend Clark Kent to just completely shave his head and he'll consider his feud with Superman over, so much that when the depressed Clark/Superman finally shows up with his head shaven, Lex outright becomes his closest ally and supporting him to both regain his powers and make peace with Lois Lane.

Which is an interesting point if DC ended up making Lex Luthor into an outright villain, and thus being Superman's arch-enemy. His hatred of Superman would end up being played much more seriously as his main drama instead of a recurring comedic skit.

 

[samcster94]

The penguin is sorely underused. He could have been one of Batman’s greatest foes but he was barely used and is a pretty obscure villain. Imagine if he was the second or third most deadly villain for Batman.

 

[Dolan]

The penguin is sorely underused. He could have been one of Batman’s greatest foes but he was barely used and is a pretty obscure villain. Imagine if he was the second or third most deadly villain for Batman.

He's kind of misunderstood Ugly Rich Guy who used Penguin-based gimmicks, and aside of him being surprisingly intelligent and hard-hitting, his "Crimes" are rather petty in nature, like stealing arts, being an illegal arms dealer, and trying to take over Gotham's underground.

Yes, he's amongst a few that canonically outwitted Batman, but who could get really mad with a guy that basically spent his crime-earned cash to care for his successful Penguin Sanctuary?

 

[Nivek]

He's kind of misunderstood Ugly Rich Guy who used Penguin-based gimmicks, and aside of him being surprisingly intelligent and hard-hitting, his "Crimes" are rather petty in nature, like stealing arts, being an illegal arms dealer, and trying to take over Gotham's underground.

Yes, he's amongst a few that canonically outwitted Batman, but who could get really mad with a guy that basically spent his crime-earned cash to care for his successful Penguin Sanctuary?

Techically the penguin could be another anti-villain in the mold of lex, remember his speech how his family was the creme of creme alongside wayne, yet his future would not war heroics, political ambitions or gala in downtown...you see how being a fallen patrician afected him and was not himself, but his family legacy, if anything is penguin sanctuary is what he is, and yeah besides arms dealing, he more a gimmick Falcone, who is a traditional mob boss