DBWI: no Empire of Israel

[Otto Kretschmer]

The Empire of Israel began it's existence as a small Kingdom in the Levant under the rule of Three Kings Shaul, David and Shalomo who laid out the foundations for further expansion. Then a further string of good rulers turned Israel from a small kingdom to a large empire in possession of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Anatolia and later expanding deeply into Europe, the largest empire in history.

What if it never happened?

 

[Mister Abbadon]

The Empire of Israel began it's existence as a small Kingdom in the Levant under the rule of Three Kings Shaul, David and Shalomo who laid out the foundations for further expansion. Then a further string of good rulers turned Israel from a small kingdom to a large empire in possession of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Anatolia and later expanding deeply into Europe, the largest empire in history.

What if it never happened?

The Israelite empire's long term effects on the modern world from the Semetic alphabet, to architecture, to government, are so numerous that I really don't know what could possibly replace them.

The standard answer seems to be the Greeks but I somehow doubt that just because their main rivals in the ancient world were deleted would automatically mean they take the pot so to speak.

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

The Israelite empire's long term effects on the modern world from the Semetic alphabet, to architecture, to government, are so numerous that I really don't know what could possibly replace them.

The standard answer seems to be the Greeks but I somehow doubt that just because their main rivals in the ancient world were deleted would automatically mean they take the pot so to speak.

Greeks? Those country bumpkins who did not even have an alefbet? They were dozens of squabbling petty states in the mountains, who would have unified them?

 

[SpaceRome]

What if it never happened?

I'd hazard to guess that without the Conversion of the Assyrians (and thus their incorporation into Israel), they'd stay the dominant power in the region. Maybe - but this is far-fetched - a kingdom in Paras* could dethrone them, but with their massive population and warlike culture I can't really see the Assyrians being thrown off the proverbial horse.

I also wonder about the Phoenicians - in our world they were the undisputed rulers of the waves, and the Milhamot Kodesh** in the west and north would not be possible without their aid. If not for Judaism unifying their disparate city-states and imbibing their colonization efforts with religious purpose, would they fall into obscurity?

* - Biblical name of Persia
** - Holy wars in Hebrew

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

I'd hazard to guess that without the Conversion of the Assyrians (and thus their incorporation into Israel), they'd stay the dominant power in the region. Maybe - but this is far-fetched - a kingdom in Paras* could dethrone them, but with their massive population and warlike culture I can't really see the Assyrians being thrown off the proverbial horse.

I also wonder about the Phoenicians - in our world they were the undisputed rulers of the waves, and the Milhamot Kodesh** in the west and north would not be possible without their aid. If not for Judaism unifying their disparate city-states and imbibing their colonization efforts with religious purpose, would they fall into obscurity?

* - Biblical name of Persia
** - Holy wars in Hebrew

OTL they became the "naval guys" of Israel, conducting the trade for the kingdom and manning it's navy. They converted but stayed somewhat distinct. Under a different power they may be forced to assimilate even more and become typical farmers.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

I'd hazard to guess that without the Conversion of the Assyrians (and thus their incorporation into Israel), they'd stay the dominant power in the region. Maybe - but this is far-fetched - a kingdom in Paras* could dethrone them, but with their massive population and warlike culture I can't really see the Assyrians being thrown off the proverbial horse.

I also wonder about the Phoenicians - in our world they were the undisputed rulers of the waves, and the Milhamot Kodesh** in the west and north would not be possible without their aid. If not for Judaism unifying their disparate city-states and imbibing their colonization efforts with religious purpose, would they fall into obscurity?

* - Biblical name of Persia
** - Holy wars in Hebrew

Well, the history of Empire of Polans would be quite different, since Lech I united various Slavic tribes under his banner thanks to influx of Iranian refugees, who introduced more advanced methods of farming, allowing Slavic population to grow and Milhamot Kodesh destroying a lot of tribal organization in the north, allowing Lech to install despotic monarchy modeled after that of kingdom of Paras.

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

OOC: is my scenario possible?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

OOC: is my scenario possible?

If you manage to fuck over any other Middle Eastern power than Israel, than yes.

 

[Mister Abbadon]

Greeks? Those country bumpkins who did not even have an alefbet? They were dozens of squabbling petty states in the mountains, who would have unified them?

I totally agree. The mystique of superior armor and weapons ( for a while) and all those white marbel columns could have made for an interesting world if they had shaped it but it just had too many roadblocks.

A few Athenian and Macedonian kings tried to unite the Greeks but never made anything that lasted.


Honestly if you're looking for someone to take the place of the Israelites you need to look to the other side of the world, maybe the far north if you stretch.

 

[Lalli]

OOC: is my scenario possible?

OOC: I think so if you just manage keep Israel as unified and make Egypt and Asyria much weaker.

IC: Israeli Empire didn't last very long (only just fec centuries) but it had huge impact on culture and religions. Judaism spred and evolved from native religion to inclusive one which allowed convertion.

If that never would happen I doubt that Hebrews can survive and they would are just footnote on pages of history. Probably montheist religions never would rise.

 

[suul'ken]

IC: Israeli Empire didn't last very long (only just fec centuries) but it had huge impact on culture and religions. Judaism spred and evolved from native religion to inclusive one which allowed convertion.

This is the opposite of what would end up happening:
Ancient judaism was obsessed with guarding the purity of bloodline and if Ancient Hebrews were sucessful in their imperial ambitions they would proabbably whish to remein distinctive from the populations they conquered eventually you might get a caste system similar to Hinduism.

 

[Aluma]

OOC: is my scenario possible?

OOC:
Depends if Bible information is accurate or not.
The Ancient Testament/Torah mentions Israel building armies ranging between 10k to 100k men during the rare few times the tribes sticked together against a common enemy
During the roman times their rebellions did reach those numbers but the population was likely much higher by then.
So in case the info is correct and not just the authors wanking their own numbers, a united Israel could have created their own pseudo-legions and pulled a canaanite Rome.
Otherwise, I think their only chance is if they somehow converted the phoenicians, which is not impossible mind you, even if they werent able to convert all of Phoenicia if they managed to convert the founders(aka Alyssa) of the phoenician north african colony a jewish Carthage miiight have been able to gain hegemony over the mediterranean for a while.

Ancient judaism was obsessed with guarding the purity of bloodline and if Ancient Hebrews were sucessful in their imperial ambitions they would proabbably whish to remein distinctive from the populations they conquered

Didnt Moses take a foreign girl and when people started complaining about it God shut them down? Or Nineveh's conversion for example.
Not arguing for the historicity of any of these events, just saying they believed in these things and that was part of their mentality.
I think the purity is a big deal for them yeah, but more so against people they saw as evil-worshippers like many of their neightbours, but they were able to show admiration for other groups who adopted their religion(such as the legendary Queen of Sheba) or foreigners that benefited them greatly(such as Cyrus the Great), so there would likely be a caste system imposed on the people they didnt like who accepted conversion(gibeonites being the precedent for that) but I think they would be far more lenient towards their allies and non-canaanite converts. In short, something more akin to the spanish caste system I think.

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

OOC: how to have Jewish legions?

Roman ones weren't built in a day. They were a culmination of centuries of fighting

 

[Worffan101]

OOC:

Israel becoming an imperial power in the ancient world is an interesting idea because of the religious divergences for me. Like, if it happens pre-Babylonian conquest, the transition from generic levantine Semitic pantheon with primacy of the local state cult's heavenly warrior figure, to monotheistic religion built around national identity, probably just wouldn't happen. Or at least not in the same way.

If it happens due to Rome crashing and burning early and the Carthaginians never really taking over the same way in the eastern Med, I guess it's plausible for the Diadochi states to just disintegrate even further and for the post-Babylonian Israelite state and religion to become a major regional empire.

In which case Judaism as a nationally-associated and monotheistic faith would probably still exist, though the national association might be diluted over time due to people wanting to get in good with the boss. A lot of the post-Roman developments of modern Judaism just wouldn't exist, and Christianity and Islam as we understand them are butterflied outright (can totally see similar but distinct revivalist/reconstructionist sects spinning off as their own religions outright though, kind of like how Zoroastrianism had that proto-communistic movement/spinoff, and the modern Muslim and Christian revivalists/reconstructionists like LDS and Babism/Baha'i).

 

[Aluma]

OOC: how to have Jewish legions?

Roman ones weren't built in a day. They were a culmination of centuries of fighting

OOC: Well, centuries of fighting is certainly something Israel didnt lack.
Again, they needed a unified army, the confederacy might have worked as a way to avoid overcentralization with one tribe over the other but it required the grand priest as a religious-military unifying figure to work, something they didnt have as a monarchy with the monarch as a temporal ruler that the tribes could ignore even if he had divine right.
A Israel united militarily and religiously* would have the centuries of fighting needed to build their own "legions", assuming their numbers werent exaggerated, something that wouldnt be possible with the tribes squabbling between themselves, refusing to send soldiers or worse actually allying with the enemy which happened many times, specially with the philistines.
Think of their situation as if the latin league was a loose confederation with Rome remaining a monarchy that collapses into civil war after the glorious rule of a David-like Rex while the people remain divided between followers of the traditional roman religion, hellenics, the cult of Baal, etc.
Rome would still have the potential for greatness but would tragically never achieve it.


*Even if we say the Bible is VERY partial towards the cult of the abrahamic God, it is true Israel was a religious mess by then otherwise the book wouldnt be giving so much emphasis to "foreign cults" making God angry

 

[GrandMaster]

Well, it's unlikely that the Solomon Temple in Babylon would be built without the massive Jewish influence of the Empire of Israel to influence its proposal and construction.

 

[Viking25]

Hmm interesting I do believe there was phonecian colony in North Africa called Carthage which was a major trading hub. Maybe It gains prominence and manages to unify the meditarenan under a sort of trade league?