As we all know, the Chinese discovered the continent of Fusang (OOC: The Americas) in the 15th century with the Chinese establishing colonies there a few decades later, but what if the Chinese weren't the ones who discovered the continent of Fusang? Who would have discovered Fusang instead? Dar al-Islam? How would the lack of colonies in Fusang have affected China's development?
DBWI: Fusang wasn't discovered by the Chinese?
- Thread starter Whiteshore
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Well, geographically, the most likely states to cross the Al'Azraq Ocean would have been Maroq, al-Andalus, or Eusqara, as well as possibly al-Saqota in the north of the British Isles. Having them discover Fusang would have required them to have good ocean-going technology, though - something that no states could afford to invest in for a long time, what with the ruinous wars that plagued the continent at that time between the various different branches of Islam, rival Caliphs, and simple interstate rivalry.
If China hadn't discovered Fusang, I doubt that would have affected their development too much - instead of colonising the west coast, they'd have expanded into the old Khmer and Javanese lands, and probably colonised Nanshamo to the south of that.
Also, what calendar are you using when you say '15th century'? Obviously, there's quite a lot, but I can't think of any popular ones where 882 AH translates to the 15th century...
What about the Empire of Nordland? Rumors had it that the Nordmen landed in Fusang 450 years before the Chinese did.
It's not entirely rumors - it is known that in the south of the Inuit Islands (OOC - I do not know what else to call Greenland) there are references to "white and fair-haired". There are traces of settlements in the north-west (however, there is definitely no possibility of subsidizing them, so one should not hope for this). However, their level of development and climate change did not allow them to gain a foothold in these lands.
Yea, the Empire of Nordland (OOC: Think a more centralized alt-Kalmar Union) could have colonized Fusang had they been not been embroiled in succession disputes.
Not just succession disputes - the time that those settlements are supposed to have come from is around the beginning of the Last Great Jihad, in which the Christist kings were finally defeated and the last of the Heretic States (including Nordland, I think) finally converted. Then, by the time the Muslim Nidarosi dynasty was fully established, the Forty Years' War came along to distract them and ensure that they didn't have any time to spare on thinking about going back across the Al'Azraq Ocean again.
"Fusang" is an Asian supremacist word for the continent that belongs to US Iroquois! One day, the imperialist invaders from the East will be pushed out, just like what happened with the English and French!
ATP45
Banned
Fusang is our lord! long live Emperor! We,loyal Iroguois love our chineese masters!!!!!
If you think collaborator, Deroux scum like you will be spared when vengeance comes, you have another think coming.
Hard to know. One thing is definitely that the Inka and Mexica wouldn't have become members of the Inner Court. Both of those empires became prosperous and modernised as vassals of the Son of Heaven - and in turn the Middle Kingdom got a great deal of gold.
Though of course the colonies on the Gold Coast were the most memorable. From the frozen north to the deserts, the entire western coast of Yingzhou is a hub of Chinese civilisation with some of the most populous cities on the planet. And the region is a major hub for the space programme.
Though of course the colonies on the Gold Coast were the most memorable. From the frozen north to the deserts, the entire western coast of Yingzhou is a hub of Chinese civilisation with some of the most populous cities on the planet. And the region is a major hub for the space programme.
It's the Christian calendar, I think. It's 15th century corresponds to 802-904 AH. Though, I don't know why anyone outside of the Christians would use that.
You mean Firanga and Al-Alba, right? "England" and "France" were their names under Christian rule.
Anyway, without Chinese colonization of Fusang, Chinese would definitely not be the most spoken language in the world. Its reputation at the time for being a maritime superpower would be struck a blow. We also might not have had the Ronin states within middle Fusang without the Chinese importing Japanese laborers to the continent.
Very interesting question. As it stands now, there probably would not have been the massive superstate in North Fusang stretching from Alyezka in the north to Mezhika in the south, let alone the ethnically Japanese client states to their east going almost all the way to the east to the River Illini, at least up to the Oji-Be, anyway.
Erm.....neither of these two nations have ever been under Islamic rule, now or ever. Firanja is the Arabic name for France, yes, and is very often used by members of the ethnic Palestinian, Tarabulsian, and Tunisian communities there, but contrary to the rantings of some German conspiracy theorists, both nations are still Christian, and wasn't "Al-Alba" taken straight from a 1950s counter-factual anyway?
OOC: The Illini is the *Mississippi River and the Oji-Be is the *Missouri.
Erm.....neither of these two nations have ever been under Islamic rule, now or ever. Firanja is the Arabic name for France, yes, and is very often used by members of the ethnic Palestinian, Tarabulsian, and Tunisian communities there, but contrary to the rantings of some German conspiracy theorists, both nations are still Christian, and wasn't "Al-Alba" taken straight from a 1950s counter-factual anyway?
OOC: The Illini is the *Mississippi River and the Oji-Be is the *Missouri.
Yeah, the small Christian kingdoms there still use the Christian names, but nobody outside those regions ever actually calls those regions by those names anymore.
Regardless, neither of then ever colonized Fusang
Erm, no, I'm afraid this is inaccurate. In fact, outside of the Levantine minority in both countries(although substantial these days, running up to 40% in some places, though this also includes a few Orthodox Christians and Jewish folk as well), and in the Levant and northern Africa, is France ever officially referred to as Firanja, and "Al-Alba" is completely fictional, anyway, deriving from a counter-factual created by, as I now recall, Stanislaw Piatek for the Winter 1954/1955 edition of the Fantastical Worlds paperette. Are you from that particular area of the world(Levant or North Africa), btw? I understand if that's the case, especially since you seem to be new here, but speaking as a German, I can assure you that France is indeed called France in most of the rest of the world(except a few other nations which call it by an equivalent; for example, Fi-Lan-Su in China).
Successfully, anyway, though attempts were made; some Englishmen did later come with the more successful German and Hollander colonies, however, and even gained autonomy in Groene-Bai[1], Lenapen[2] and Neues Hannover[3], while French citizens(including some married to Berbers, though they were only a small part of the population then, if rather well assimilated) fleeing the Musayid invasions during the Mediterranean War in the 1720s made it to Spanish Florida and Tennesia. And, of course, let's not forget Scottish Alba-Nuadh[4], either.
OOC: Paperette is the ATL word for *magazine, btw.
[1]OTL southern Maine + New Hampshire
[2]OTL's New Jersey + eastern Penn., and southern N.Y. State
[3]Upstate N.Y. and much of the rest of Penn.
[4]OTL Virginia east of the Appalachians + the southern half of the Delmarva peninsula
I was in Al-Saqota recently, and they regularly call their neighbors to the South "Al-Alba". They don't distinguish between the Kingdom of England, and the Muslim dominated part actually called "Al-Alba", they just call it under that overall banner. (You oddly characterize that story, which was set in the real-life " University of Al-Alba", as a counterfactual.) Same goes with Al-Alemania (you might come from the Christian part of that, considering they still call it Germany there), Al-Andulusia, Rum, and Eusqara. Even in Christian Holland, they call it that. Almost everywhere I've been, the region has been called "Firanja". Once again, a banner term, since the Christian nation to the North is still technically called France.
I live in the Maratha Confederacy.
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The tsundere rivalry between China and Japan over Fusang that would - arguably - propelled the entirety of the Sinosphere into the world powers they are today will be butterflied away entirely.
Though at times the Koreans and us Vietnamese can't help but wonder if those two were being stupid intentionally
Though at times the Koreans and us Vietnamese can't help but wonder if those two were being stupid intentionally
Erm.....what? Fantastical Worlds is a well-known science fiction paperette and has been since it's creation in 1941, including counter-factuals. And no official university building I am aware of is called "Al-Alba", and the University of Al-Alba mentioned in The Man from Al-Alba is actually where Oxford University stands in our world; the closest thing I can think of is the Al-Alba Book Club dedicated to allohistorical fiction at Cambridge, founded in the 1960s by, interestingly enough, a slight majority of Muslim students, mainly from South Asia and the Levant.
I'm from the Rhineland, and no Muslim majority states exist anywhere in the German Federation(though I assure you, Muslims are accepted by most here!). Granted, though, Euskara did get a lot of immigration from the Moroccan Sultanate and Tarabulsia from the '40s onwards and Arabic is the official second language since 1990, so I guess that counts, at least.
I've been all over the western half of Europe, including Holland and Britain-that name is not used by most except by mainly Arabic-speaking Muslims, even in Shqiperia which is 60% Muslim as of toay. Perhaps you were primarily visiting Muslim communities at the time? Even Nordland has a fair few these days, as does Hibernia(or Eire, as they call it in their native language).
Hmm.....that kind of explains it, as the Maratha Confederacy is majority Muslim and has developed a lot of ties with the Levant. Though despite the Dar-Al Islam Party being elected to power, I don't believe they are officially using that name(though it has been informally, by many, for over two centuries) unless the proposed diplomatic reforms of 2015 were actually passed.
Edit: As it so appears, yes, those reforms were in fact passed as of April of last year.
OOC: Nordland was mentioned to have fallen to Muslim force earlier. It was also heavily implied that Europe was now predominantly Muslim.
That said, this discussion is not really relevant to the overall discussion, so let's drop it.