Create an alternate reality Conqueror we never heard of
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Speaking of that, Besides the Greeks and the turks, we don't really see Armenians, Caucasus tribes and Balkans Empire
LeoII
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There was an Armenian Empire, actually:
Sea to Sea Armenia
Tigran II of the Artaxiad Dynasty of Armenia took advantage of the weakening Seleucid Empire to unify Armenia then conquer much of the Northern Middle East. As Plutarch writes: "over Armenia there sits enthroned Tigranes, King of Kings, with forces which enable him to cut the Parthians off from Asia, transplant Greek cities into Media, sway Syria and Palestine, put to death the successors of Seleucus, and carry off their wives and daughters into captivity. "
He was between the growing Roman and Parthian Empires, however, and after surviving war with first Lucullus of Rome, then the Parthians, he surrendered his Empire to Pompey, and was allowed to remain King of Armenia, after relinquishing the rest of his conquests.
There was also a Bulgarian and Serbian Empire of the Balkans.
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Thank You for making this Post but there's still a Caucuses empire that is still an good TL to read through
No it didnt. People always say this however they usually point to things not in Judaism. Dualism? Not Jewish. Hellfire? There are other things in gehinnah then fire. Satan? He is in the Torah and Job predating any contact with Zoroastrianism. Also, he isnt in rebellion. (Dont give me Torah was created during the Persian or Babylonian exile. Ezra and books from that time dont separate between the shin and the samech. The Torah dies meaning it occurred before this sound shift in a written form. )
Also the demographic weight of the ten tribes isnt strong enough to do much besides be a plurality along the coast. Not to mention I dont think Siddhartha was from that area of India that Jewish slaves would be sent to. But lets say he lives in a Jewish area and hand wave all that. He then successfully unites India. He wouldn't be moshiach because he isnt a son of David. He didnt conquer an inch of eretz yisrael. Now could he start a Hasmoneans lije dynasty? Most assuredly. If he was also a Torah scholar to the caliber he was of Buddhism he would be soundly remembered indeed and could lead to an AH where India is a mix of Judaism and Noachidism. This would assuredly butterfly away Islam if not christianity. Though the idea of Roman thinkers defanging Jewish messichism could still happen even with powerful Jewish kingdoms which would lead to atl christianity. Ignoring butterflies, it would probably look the same as Roman culture would if anything have a heightened antisemitism. Which could lead to the approach of Augustine to us not being the one chosen and instead they destroy Jewish communities where ever they find them. Leading to a larger Jewish population in Persia and us fleeing to there and India. If there wasn't a center of learning in India there would be now. If it happens early enough we could see a Talmud Hindustani or something lije that. Though otl we had a third Talmud that of the Roman academies they just never wrote it down. India would be in constant contact with the yeshivas of Babel and eretz yisrael so it possible that they adopt the same stance as the Italkim and dont write their Talmud down. Himyar could also survive as Jewish traders from India would be going to them and not akksum. Probably coping there.
The question with Buddhism turning into the Hindustani tradition of Judaism does it go to China and central Asia? If so we could see a more successful Khazariah as in central Asia remains Jewish atleast as a plurality until christianity moves in if we still see a Russia. I doubt India would influence the christianization of the slavs.
Agreed for the most part
Though I dont have anything to add to the discussion and frankly I dont think entering a jewish argument is a good idea x3
I was going for more of a jewish diasphora across India rather than any place in particular(coast or else) with converted indians(noahists) adding to the bulk of Judaism on top of the high fertility of exiled jews(as mentioned in Exodus and often seen in peoples refusing to having their culture erased)
As for Gautama, I called it "Alt-Buddha" because the OTL Siddhart would obviously be butterflied away but I do believe a similar figure would arise in India and having such figure be a result of the introduction of Judaism to India ITTL makes sense to me
Thats the idea, though for the Messiah part Im aware he obviously wouldnt be fulfilling the scriptures but I think the claim would still be made by his followers
Reason being he'd still be leading his own version of Judaism(a buddhist version of it) who'd say he is related to David(which would be very hard to disprove if they dont keep tabs on his ancestry) and if not THE Messiah then at least "a" messiah(like Cyrus) due to his clearly divine-supported conquests even though he didnt get to Israel proper - and even then they could claim he "sort of" did due to the Alt-Maurya's contribution to the fall of the babylonian-assyrians, resulting in the liberation of the Holy Land from their control and return of some jews to it
Regarding butterflies, yeah I'd have the Roman Empire and Christianity(and by extension Islam) completely butterflied away
Or Socrates! I mean he was a general
I am not sure when did Arabs or Kurds got their names from Central Asian dudes.
And 'centuries' of ethnic cleansing? If it was on the scale which only started at the end of 19th century, many of the said countries wouldn’t exist into modern day. Basically Timur's caucasus campaign but repeated for 4 centuries without break.
Everyone is imperialistic, not gonna argue on that. But colonialism? How many people in Balkans speak Turkish in that case? And if it was colonialism then what about Huns, pechnegs and Avars? Were they 'colonialists' as well?
Kilij Arslan I doesn't die prematurely, but lives until his fifties or sixties. The Sultanate of Rum will at the very least be spared the turmoil that followed his early death, and depending on the POD he may also keep control of Mosul (he conquered it briefly IOTL, but was defeated and killed at the Khabur River), greatly expanding its power.
There's a chance, however slim it may be due to the Komnenian restoration, that the Byzantines lose control of Western Anatolia for good a century or two earlier.
There's a chance, however slim it may be due to the Komnenian restoration, that the Byzantines lose control of Western Anatolia for good a century or two earlier.
I’ve really gotta get to writing my timeline on this subject
the demand for one seems to only be growing so, this may be my time to finally do it
Hoelun, father of Temujin, does NOT fall victim to the Tatars that poisoned him IOTL.
He returns home and lives a typical life for a Mongol chieftien .
His children, including his eldest son Temujin, grow up to live unremarkable lives.
Meanwhile, another Mongol named Jamukha rose to power and united the warring tribes around 1200.
This man was somewhat diplomatic {by Mongol standards}, and arranged a forced marriage {abduction was involved} with the favorite {and only legitimate} daughter of one of the {Great} Jin princes, who lacked sons of his own. With the aid of feinted attacks orchestrated by Jamukha {who by now had fathered his first of several sons with his reluctant Jin bride}, the Prince overthrew the distracted Jin Emperor, only to be betrayed in turn by Jamukha in 1212. Although much territory of the Jin empire was quickly lost to the southern Sung and the western Liao during the ensuing turmoil, most of the most useful territory was retained.
Jamukha has conquered a generational enemy of the Mongols in a relatively bloodless fashion, winning the everlasting loyalty of the various Mongol tribes.
They declared him 'King of all Kings'. Jamulka considered his next moves while he consolidated his new holdings.
He returns home and lives a typical life for a Mongol chieftien .
His children, including his eldest son Temujin, grow up to live unremarkable lives.
Meanwhile, another Mongol named Jamukha rose to power and united the warring tribes around 1200.
This man was somewhat diplomatic {by Mongol standards}, and arranged a forced marriage {abduction was involved} with the favorite {and only legitimate} daughter of one of the {Great} Jin princes, who lacked sons of his own. With the aid of feinted attacks orchestrated by Jamukha {who by now had fathered his first of several sons with his reluctant Jin bride}, the Prince overthrew the distracted Jin Emperor, only to be betrayed in turn by Jamukha in 1212. Although much territory of the Jin empire was quickly lost to the southern Sung and the western Liao during the ensuing turmoil, most of the most useful territory was retained.
Jamukha has conquered a generational enemy of the Mongols in a relatively bloodless fashion, winning the everlasting loyalty of the various Mongol tribes.
They declared him 'King of all Kings'. Jamulka considered his next moves while he consolidated his new holdings.
Im just thinking or where slaves would be distributed and southern India and Gujarat makes the most sense though with a hundred and fifty years and with our massive birth rate, average today among heredim is five kids, it would be probable we would continue xto be scattered from out landing zones so to speak in those locations to the interior.
I doubt it. Its not made often. And if it was, it would either stop being Judaism like christianity or die out like shabtaeism.
Very easily disprooven since these are the ten tribes and wouldn't even have a judahite around. And with the Jews being slaves a nobles son who sympathizes with them slaves and their religion would be a convert and thus it wouldn't even be considered. I would think this fits with Siddhartha enough for alt Siddhartha to do it. And it makes a good story ngl. Ten tribes I dont think would even desire a Davidic king. They would only have a few of the books of the Tanakh. Though its highly likely the alt great assembly would include atleast a few from India which would mean the tanakh and prayer service would be accepted. But this would be to late for alt Siddhartha to have a messianic fervor around him.
I dont chapt how the rise of Rome would be butterflied. Indian influence didnt project to the med except via traders. Even then they would dock in Egypt or Iraq. If anything Persia is weaker and thus Alexander has an easier conquest. If its times with the collapse of alt Siddhartha empire he could take the indus perhaps before alt marya kicks out his general. And if Rome takes Judea with is almost assured once the Selucids and Carthage are defeated by Rome. The Ptolemies cant stop them. And we would if anything be more rebellious with Indian Jews showing up in Egypt and traveling to Jerusalem.
(Hmm a short story of a Jewish Indian king traveling to Jerusalem might be interesting...)
And of course with great repression comes messianic claimants. Imo someone will fill the spot of Jesus or the Romans will pick someone too when they create christianity to turn the Jews passive through removing war from moshiach.
Shame you didn't take the REALLY GOOD advice that BKW offered the last time you were kicked. If you had we might not be here.
You have been here a shade over four months. This is your second kick. That is to be considered A BAD THING.
See ya in Seven.
Ambrosius Aurelianus (an obscure Romano-British warlord from the 5th century who probably inspired the legend of King Arthur) creates a lasting kingdom, and his successors eventually defeat the Anglo-Saxons for good.
In a similar vein, Syagrius beating Clovis and uniting Gaul.
Ariovistus manages to defeat Julius Caesar, allowing him to consolidate power on the Rhine and eventually forge a massive empire spanning Germania, Gaul, and Britannia.
Guglielmo VII, Marquis of Monferrato: OTL around 1260, with a mix of ruthlessness, ferocity and luck, often changing sides between Guelphs and Ghibellines, he managed to first conquer a large part of southern Piedmont, to then control Pavia, Vercelli, Novara, Alessandria, Tortona, Alba, Genoa, Turin, Asti, Brescia, Cremona and Lodi. He reached the peak of power in 1278, when, taking advantage of the feud between Torriani and Visconti, he managed to get himself appointed lord of Milan: from that moment on, fate turned against him. He is treacherously taken prisoner by Count Thomas III of Savoy, to whom, in order to obtain his freedom, he must cede Turin and is driven out of Milan by a conspiracy organized by Archbishop Ottone Visconti.
Finally, his death was inglorious: while he was besieging the Piedmontese city of Alexandria, he was invited to a meeting to discuss the surrender of the besiegers, who, however, violating the truce, captured him and imprisoned him in an iron cage, where the Marquis died of hunger. Let's assume that ITL has less luck or is more distrusted: it will defeat the Savoys, who will remain one of the many French nobles and will consolidate its control in Milan. The Aleramic dynasty, therefore, will control a state that will include a large part of the Po Valley, Liguria and part of Emilia. Given that OTL Violante marries the Byzantine emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus, a cadet branch of this Byzantine imperial dynasty, founded by Theodore Palaeologus, inherits the duchy of Monferrato, which however, unlike ITL, in which it is a marginal state, dominates the richest and most populous areas of Italy and unlike the Visconti, it has excellent relations with both Venice and Florence.
Finally, his death was inglorious: while he was besieging the Piedmontese city of Alexandria, he was invited to a meeting to discuss the surrender of the besiegers, who, however, violating the truce, captured him and imprisoned him in an iron cage, where the Marquis died of hunger. Let's assume that ITL has less luck or is more distrusted: it will defeat the Savoys, who will remain one of the many French nobles and will consolidate its control in Milan. The Aleramic dynasty, therefore, will control a state that will include a large part of the Po Valley, Liguria and part of Emilia. Given that OTL Violante marries the Byzantine emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus, a cadet branch of this Byzantine imperial dynasty, founded by Theodore Palaeologus, inherits the duchy of Monferrato, which however, unlike ITL, in which it is a marginal state, dominates the richest and most populous areas of Italy and unlike the Visconti, it has excellent relations with both Venice and Florence.
Narsieh - Wikipedia
This guy was the grandson of the last Sassanid shah, Yazdegerd III, and spent most of his life in a comfortable exile in Tang China. The Tang court sent him west in 679 with an army led by Pei Xingjian, whose purpose was to establish a rump Sassanid state under Chinese protection. Pei got embroiled in conflict with the Western Turkic Khaganate, and lost interest in his original mission.
Assuming Pei doesn't get sidetracked, I wonder if Narsieh could create a small kingdom in Sistan and Tokharistan. If this kingdom isn't either conquered by the Arabs or falls apart for whatever reason, perhaps he could even take advantage of the Second Fitna and take over Khorasan and the rest of the Iranian heartland while the Umayyads and Zubayrids (and Alids, Kharijites, etc) are busy beating each other into a pulp.
This "restored Sassanid Empire" could be a very interesting entity, combining different aspects of Chinese, Arabic and Persian culture, military and governance.
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Its because the POD is two centuries before the birth of Romulus(so another latin/etruscan city is likely to take its place) and nearly 600 before Alexander(whose replacement never gets so lucky as to unite all of the greek world), plus Persia(or whoever else takes their place) isnt weaker here since the idea was for India to support them against the akkadians, so if anything they get an earlier rise and may make Judea de jure an independent state for iranian jews as a token of appreciation for India's aid against their enemy which would make him have indirectly caused the liberation of Israel
Yeah I figured whatever religion came out of it would be something else of indian character, albeit rooted in Judaism like Christianity is, which is why I half-jokingly called it Abrahamic Buddhism
Makes sense, so no Davidic claim then
I still figure his dynasty would claim him to be annointed by God but I guess not saying he's big M Messiah would be less of a headache due to all the scriptural rabbit hole he'd have to get himself into
So the reason we didnt get a Chinese Persia of sorts is that this guy had the attention span of a goldfish? Honestly relatableNarsieh - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
This guy was the grandson of the last Sassanid shah, Yazdegerd III, and spent most of his life in a comfortable exile in Tang China. The Tang court sent him west in 679 with an army led by Pei Xingjian, whose purpose was to establish a rump Sassanid state under Chinese protection. Pei got embroiled in conflict with the Western Turkic Khaganate, and lost interest in his original mission.
Assuming Pei doesn't get sidetracked, I wonder if Narsieh could create a small kingdom in Sistan and Tokharistan. If this kingdom isn't either conquered by the Arabs or falls apart for whatever reason, perhaps he could even take advantage of the Second Fitna and take over Khorasan and the rest of the Iranian heartland while the Umayyads and Zubayrids (and Alids, Kharijites, etc) are busy beating each other into a pulp.
This "restored Sassanid Empire" could be a very interesting entity, combining different aspects of Chinese, Arabic and Persian culture, military and governance.
In his defense, Central Asia is insanely distant from China proper, and any conquest or protectorate beyond Samarkand or so would've been more of a vanity project rather than an enduring presence anyway.
Narsieh would need an insane amount of luck for his state to be anything other than a flash in the pan (he'd be surrounded by nomads, his benefactor is thousands of kilometers away and there's an expansionist empire right on his doorstep), but history is full of implausible events.