Continuing after Sufetula 647; Muslim Europe

In 647, outside the temporary capital of the exarchate of Africa, Sufetula, the Muslims crushed the Roman army, killing the exarch Gregory. Leaving the rest of the Roman Maghreb defenceless.
Commanded by some of the most senior of companions of the prophet:
But instead of pressing on, they opted to merely loot and take tribute, returning to Egypt.

It was only in 670, when Qayrawan was founded, that a permenant Arab conquest of the region began. Though completely ousted in 682, they managed to return, and conquer the whole region up to the Atlantic by 707, 60 years after Sufetula.


So instead straight after the battle, they use take over Sufetula and use it as a base of operations in the region.
(Qayrawan could be founded as a new Misr but its more eastern than Sufetula, making governance over the regions in the far west much more difficult...)

From Sufetula, establishing direct rule over most of Tunisia by the end of 647. Except for Carthage, which is probably too difficult for the Muslims to take right now. Focusing on controling the interior instead.

While this is happening, the Caliphate would send reinforcements after hearing about the success and potential riches of the region. Including many Bedouin to attack from the southern deserts, perhaps Banu Hilal and Sulaym who historically would go on to ravage the region 400 years later...
Conquering the Libyan Garamantes on the way to Ifriqiyyah, just as Uqba ibn Nafi did historically.

Along with this land force a small naval detachment and shipbuilders and some sailors from Egypt/Levant would be sent also.
These would begin the creation of the Maghrebi Muslim navy, at Tripoli, Sfax and other southern Tunisian ports.

With these reinforcements they would begin the push westwards, mainly against Berber tribes. The Bedouin would attack via the desert, the Navy would take the largely abandoned Roman ports revitalising their shipyards, while the rest of the army takes the plains jutted with mountains between the two.

Ideally they would follow in the way of Abul Muhajir ibn Dinar or Musa ibn Nusayr, treating the Berbers without contempt, encouraging conversion and incorporating them into the army. Instead of what Uqba ibn Nafi did. Making conquest of the region easier and swifter.

But the navy would be the most important aspect of the campaign. The Byzantine navy was busy fighting the first initial naval raids of Muawiyah. And beyond Tunisia almost all former Roman ports were abandoned, and the Berber tribes dont seem to have much of a maritime history.

This would make the Muslims unchallenged on the coasts, using ports as bases, which the Berbers would have no chance of taking.
For this reason, as well as a larger navy and more amicable relations with the berbers, the Maghreb would be conquered much faster than Uqba ibn Nafi or Musa ibn Nusayr's attempts.



By 650 a central Misr would be founded probably at abandoned Icosium (Algiers) due to its central location, fertile hinterland and strategic location on the Mediterranean. If Arabs are still scared of the sea, despite the early Maghrebi naval build up, Tiaret could be chosen instead (historical capital of Rustamids).

In mid-late 651, the Navy and land army would take Tangiers. Establishing trade relations with Visigoths.
Then army continues southwards into the Arable, though underutilized, plains of Morocco. The largest region of fertile land in the Maghreb.
Establishing a large Misr at Casablanca due to its central location in the fertile plains and it's port, starting the creation of an Atlantic navy.

Giving the Maghreb 3 major cities: Sufetula, Casablanca and slightly smaller Icosium in the centre. This would make control over the western regions much easier, as historically only Qayrawan in the far east was a major misr, with a small one at Tangier.
And it would encourage more westerly Arab settlement, instead of just in Ifriqiyah.


By mid-late 652, Agadir and most of the Sus valley is taken. Starting the trans-Saharan gold trade and the beginnings of Muslim influence in west Africa. Perhaps some Arab Bedouin going with the Berbers, establishing a slight Arab presence?

The navy might also take the Canaries for timber and other resources.





Around this time in the east, Yazdegerd had just died. Ending the Persian Campaigns. This would allow over perhaps a dozen thousand additional reinforcements in the west.
Accompanied by a larger naval force due to a more developed navy after Muawiyah's raids on Cyprus.
En route they would probably take the city of Carthage. Garrisoning it, and revitalising it's Cothon, avoiding Byzantine reconquest. The ancient city soon surpassing Sufetula as the Ifriqiyan capital.

They would be accompanied by some Iranian Qanat builders along with them, to develop agriculture in the region.
And perhaps some Persian Asawira Cavalry, as they are in a completely foreign land with no local ties. Thus making them more loyal.

Thus by around mid-late 652 the majority of the Maghreb would be secured, save for some difficult to access Berber mountain tribes.



Now their attentions are drawn across the straits...
In 653, Chindaswinth, king of the Visigoths, died. Replaced by his son Reeceswinth, his ascension was contested by a rebellion by Froia in the Upper Ebro.

The Arabs would use this to invade. Rallying 20,000 men. A quarter to third of which being newly converted Berbers. Giving a larger army that what Tariq bin Ziyad + Musa ibn Nusayr had (18,000).
This would be accompanied by a large fleet, which would've been built up as the Arabs conquered the Maghrebi coast. Since the Visigoths had almost no navy, they would be unchallenged on the seas, allowing attacks on coastal cities all over the Iberian peninsula, with minimal resistance. Potentially even landing troops on the Asturias coast, avoiding the much more difficult mountainous land route.
In fact, the navy could go up the Navigable rivers. Primarily the Guadalquivir to besiege Seville and the Ebro to Zaragoza or potentially as far as Logroño.


Tariq managed to take the majority of Iberia in only 4-5 years.
With a larger army, but especially the navy this could be drastically sped up. But in Tariq's time Iberia was far more fractured and the civil war much more severe. Whereas Froia's rebellion was much smaller affair making the conquest more difficult...

Overall, it would probably still take a similar amount the same time, completing the conquest of the entirety of the Visigothic kingdom by 657.
With much stronger control over Asturias and Galicia due to the navy. Building a large shipyard at Gijon for raiding the Frankish and potentially British coasts.

Due to the larger and more accessible timber resources of Iberia, moreso than any other Muslim territory on the Mediterranean, it would become the main shipyard of the Caliphate, exporting it's ships to the timber sparse east.

All this would drastically increase the Muslim control over the Mediterranean. The large navy and trade between Iberia and the Muslim east would make control and communications with the far west easier, as naval transport is faster and more efficient. Allowing more central control.
Especially after the battle of the masts in 655, decimating the Roman navy. The Levantine, Egyptian, Maghrebi and Iberian Navies put together, would almost result in a Muslim Mediterranean...

Personally Cordoba seems a little too southerly as an Iberian Capital. While the Guadalquivir valley was the richest on the peninsula, it is too distant to properly control the second richest, the Ebro valley, especially with the many mountains in the way. Not to mention the rebellious regions in the north west. Which is why the Umayyad Emirate had such severe rebellions for close to 150 years. Even under Abdurahmaan iii the frontier lords still had significant amounts of independence...
Toledo seems like a more centrally controlled capital. This would also provide continuity with the previous regime, however this may be unwanted, and generally goes against Rashidun policy of building new capitals. Perhaps Madrid?




But in 656 the first Muslim civil war took place. This would take a few months to reach Iberia, so the Muslims would've already conquered the peninsula when news reaches them.

Assuming the generals in the battle of Sufetula are the same as those conquering Iberia, a sizeable number would move east. Such as: Hassan and Husain in support of their father Ali, as well as Abdullah ibn Jafar, Ali's nephew. Perhaps Abdullah and Ma'bad ibn Abbas in support of their Cousin Ali. Abdullah ibn Zubayr in support of his father Zubayr. Marwan ibn al Hakam in support of Muawiyah, Abdullah ibn Amr, to assist his father.

These notables might take a fairly significant portions of the army with them. Which would lead to significant manpower shortages. For this reason all offensive conquests would cease, and the Muslims would go on the defensive to hold onto the new western annexations until the fitnah ends, Some regions may have to be withdrawn from, such as northern Iberia, Sus valley, mountainous interior of Algeria. With Muslim control strongest on the coasts.

The Berbers would also start to be converted and recruited in much greater numbers to replace the Arabs.




Assuming the fitnah ends in the same manner, reinforcements would return to the Maghreb in 661. Now coupled with a large Berber component of the army.
Any territories lost would be retaken, and offensive campaigns would restart.




Campaigns would be aimed at 2 regions: Iberia and Atlantic Morocco attacking Frankia, while the rest of the Maghreb and some of Mediterranean Iberia attacks Sicily/Italy.


Contrary to the centralising Frankia under the Carolingian Mayor's of the Palace, Merovingian Frankia in the 660s was a mess. Neustria, Austrasia, Burgundy and Aquitaine were all divided. Their kings were often powerless to their respective mayor's of the palace. Coups and revolts were frequent.

Such a divided environment would be quite easy for the Muslims to invade. Encouraging revolts, coups and infighting. Then invading, ostensibly to support one faction. But in reality for conquest.

The main regions of conquest would be Aquitaine and Burgundy, both of which under nominal control of the Neustrian king Chlothar, though he was only 9 years old in 661, with his mother Balthild his regent. Aquitaine seems to have been de facto independent under Felix, it also seems to have been dominated by semi pagan Basques.

Having already taken Septimania, half of the Iberian Army and navy would take the rest of the Provencal coast without too much difficulty. Perhaps following the coast all the way to Genoa and beyond, since the Lombards were currently engaged in a civil war after Grimoald murdered the king of the Lombards.

After securing Provence going up the Rhone river, eventually taking Lyon by around 667.

Meanwhile, the remaining half of the Iberian Army would attack Aquitaine via the western Pyrenees coastal pass. Assisted by the Gijon/Atlantic Navy.
Taking Bayonne and then Bordeaux. From Bordeaux going up the Garonne river to Toulouse. Besieging the city, being assisted by a Septimanian force. Taking it by 664.
Then continuing North taking Limoges and Poitiers by 667.
The navy taking Nantes in 668, establishing relations with Alain II Hir, the Breton king, perhaps using Galician Britons to win some favour... In any case, supporting the Bretons against the Franks.
Using Nantes to go up the Loire river, attacking Angers, Tours and Orleans - a former Frankish capital. By 670.
Ideally the navy would take Brest too. Using it to begin raids on the heavily divided British Isles.

While the Lyon Army continues to Dijon, taking it by 668. Then continuing to the Austrasian capital Metz. Taking it by 671.
While a smaller force would move east from Dijon taking Basel. Using it to send raiding parties down the Rhine, dominating the Rhine valley.

While the force that took Orleans would move on nearby Paris, taking it by 672.

By 675, the entire Frankish realm would be firmly under Muslim control. Through playing the many factions of the Franks against each other.
Around 100,000 Berbers and some Arabs would be settled in garrisons throughout the region, mainly along the waterways.


From there campaigns would continue. With a major one to the east, into Bavaria, ruled by the Agilofing duke, Theodo. It was almost entirely outside Frankish control and still largely Pagan.
Taking his capital of Regensburg would give access to the Danube. Sending riverine fleets down the river against the Avars and south Slavs, as well as the Bulgarians, who had just moved into the region.
Establishing fortifications all along the river, to ensure control and as points of domination in the region.

From here, the Byzantines could also be attacked, although they had already lost the majority of the Balkans to the south Slavs. So the Pagan Slavs would be supported against the Byzantines, they would also be called to Islam, with the Byzantines as their enemy, many would be receptive to the call.

The Danubian fleets would also give significant influence in the Black sea. A joint campaign on Georgia would strengthen this Influence. The land army attacking from Armenia and Azerbaijan, While the navy attacks the coast, particularly around Abkhazia.
Using the Georgian coast to build a significant Black sea fleet, when added to the Danubian fleet, making the Muslims the dominant power of the Black sea.
Taking Byzantine Crimea, going up the Dnieper and Don rivers. Using these to attack the Khazars from the north as well as the south.
While also attacking the northern Anatolian coast.

Meanwhile, in the west, after taking France, Landing an army 20,000 or so strong in England.
The British Isles were much more divided than Frankia, and so by playing factions against one another, could be conquered easier.
The flatter terrain of England compared to Iberia or southern France, would also make campaigns and logistics easier.

But the region doesn't have that much strategic importance, and so not much focus would be placed on its campaigns...











While all this was going on, the Maghrebi fleet would be conquering the Mediterranean.

The Balerics would've already been taken by a small naval force during the invasion of Iberia, with little resistance.
After the first fitnah, the Iberian and Maghrebi navies would take Sardinia and the Corsican coast, these too would fall fairly easily, but the Corsican mountains wouldn't be worth the effort.

After this comes Sicily. The Muslims would already take Malta and Pantelleria by beginning of 662. This would mean Constans ii would not move the Capital to Syracuse.

Sicily hadn't been attacked in centuries, and the Byzantines wouldn't have been able to fortify it quick enough, especially with Muslim dominance of the Mediterranean following Battle of the masts. So its defences would be fairly weak.

Landing on the western coast besieging Palermo, falling around 663.
Then moving southwards down the fairly flat plains to Syracuse, capital of the island. This would require a much longer siege, perhaps falling after 3 years in 666. Then northwards to the mountains with Messina falling around 668. By 670, most Byzantines holdouts on the island would fall.

Then moving onto the mainland. Taking a few ports on the Calabrian coast, not bothering too much over the mountainous interior. The main aim would be Apulia. Which was flat, fertile and within striking distance of the Balkans. The navy taking Taranto in 671 and Bari in 673.

From Bari beginning to attack the Dalmatian coast allying with the local pagan south Slavs against the Byzantines. and dominating the entire Adriatic sea with a newly built Apulian navy. With even a few forays up the Po river into the Lombard heartland.

Also pushing eastwards taking the Ionian Islands and some of coastal Peloponnese. Crete had been taken in 674 and Rhodes and Smyrna in 672. The Italian and Maghrebi navies would help on further conquering the Aegean, taking Athens, Thessaloniki in 675, bringing local south Slavs on their side.

A few small ships going up some of the Maritsa, beginning the ravaging of Thrace, the hinterland of Constantinople.

While the Black sea navy attacks from the north.


At that, the main army would arrive in 678. A large portion of western troops landing on Thrace, while Eastern troops traverse Anatolia to Chalcedon, or they could also be transported via Eastern Mediterranean or perhaps even the black sea navy.

The city is completely surrounded. Muslim domination of the Mediterranean and Black sea is complete, and the Byzantines have no allies.


Thus, Constantinople falls after 2 years of siege on the eve of Muawiyah's death in early 680.
And so the Byzantine empire falls.

Though a few holdouts would remain, mainly throughout most of Anatolia and some of central Italy. Perhaps slightly in the Balkan interior not overrun by Slavs, and for the time being in Crimea.

But the Muslims are unable to deal with these immediately, as soon after the city falls and is extremely heavily garrisoned, Muawiyah would die.

Thus the 2nd fitnah would begin.
However things are different now.
The main reason the battle of Sufetula was won was due to Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr. Assuming he, as well as Hassan, Hussain etc stayed in the Maghreb after the battle, and participated in the conquest of the rest of the Maghreb and Iberia, then those regions would be extremely loyal to Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr and Hussain.
Especially the now large Berber component of the Muslim army, which converted mostly at their hands.

After the first fitnah, assuming Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr and perhaps Hussain went back to the Muslim west to continue campaigns into Italy or Frankia, then those places would also be loyal to them, they might've even gotten involved in the actual seige of Constantinople.

Even if they weren't there directly, the armies who conquer them and especially the Berbers would be loyal to Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr and Hussain. Giving them dominance over the Western Muslim world, as well as Hejaz and for Hussain Iraq.


But assuming Muawiya put Yazid in charge of the main army which took Constantinople, then Yazid would have huge popularity even among non Syrian Junds.


So Hussain wouldn't have to risk allying with the potentially treacherous Iraqis, rather, he along with Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr could seek much stronger support from the Muslim west.

Rebelling from Carthage instead of untenable Makkah.
This would give control over the western navies, far larger than their eastern counterparts. And so, Egypt could be taken fairly easily by a Zubayrid naval invasion.
Then taking the Levantine coast with the ports of Acre, Tyre, Sidon and Beirut all being within striking distance of Damascus.

While the Levantine coast is being assaulted, Iraqi and Hejazi armies would march on Damascus, from the East and South respectively. With the Levantine ports march from the west.

Besieging Damascus and ending the Umayyads.

The Byzantine elements in Anatolia and Italy would attempt to use the Chaos to win back territory.
But the Muslims have taken their entire coastline and completely dominate the seas.
They don't have any land Holding in the Balkans due to the South Slav invasions and subsequent Muslim coastal invasion.

And Constantinople would remaim extremely heavily garrisoned, after the huge expense in attaining it. So it would be almost impossible for Byzantines to retake it.
Though they would probably be able to oust some of the Muslims from some of southern Italy. As well as retake some regions in Anatolia, perhaps even invading Cilicia or Upper Syria...
Crimean Byzantines would probably make an alliance with the Khazars and Bulgars.

But as soon as the fitnah is over, much of this would be reversed, and the Muslims would set about ending these last remnants.


By that Hussain or ibn al-Zubayr becomes Caliph, hereditary Caliphate never occurs.
The Capital is a tricky one, due to the now huge western focus of the Caliphate. Probably Fustat, since it's Navigable both to the Mediterranean and the red sea via the Pharaohs canal.

The focus of troops on western campaigns would mean less effective eastern campaigns. Probably staying behind the Oxus river, and not attempting to invade Kabul in the 660s.

But once the western campaigns are complete, focus can be shifted east. Especially the unfathomable riches of India.
The Berber conversions would also increase the total number of Muslim fighters available.


But I'll end this timeline here.


Overall, I think this is a fairly realistic timeline.
The main part which is slightly unlikely is the speed at which a Maghrebi navy could be made. But Muawiyah first made his navy and assaulted Cyprus in 645. A few ships could be sent west with alongside land reinforcements, and the shipyards of Tripolitania, Southern Tunisia, potentially Cyrenaica and later the rest of the Maghreb would be able to quickly make a significant Maghrebi navy.

Another area which may be unlikely is the speed at which Tangier can be reached. But as long as they do so before 653, 6 years after Sufetula, they can get involved in Froia's rebellion. So in the worst case, they could just purely focus on capturing the abandoned coast, which should be quite easy.

Also the Muslims taking Regensburg after Frankia, using it to send fleets down the Danube into the black sea is probably highly unlikely. But as long as they take the Georgian coast, they can build a black sea fleet to attack Anatolia and Thrace from the north. Since they already had Armenia and some of eastern modern day Georgia this shouldn't be too difficult...





Otherwise, another timeline where Umar and the early Muslims have no qualms against building a navy, and do so as soon as they reach the Mediterranean, Which is 2 years after the prophet died, in 634 with the conquest of Gaza. This would make all this much more feasible.
 
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From Sufetula, establishing direct rule over most of Tunisia by the end of 647. Except for Carthage, which is probably too difficult for the Muslims to take right now. Focusing on controling the interior instead.
That be even more dificult imo not only have the muslims not gained naval supremacy which means any attempt to bypass the coast would leave the muslims exposed but the romans would help the berbers as the otl

a better option would be no first fitnah or a very short one which has massive ramifications but that breathing room allowed Constans II to fortify Africa because while we remember the 670 campaign arab raids were a thing by early 660s and big ones at that.

The main part which is slightly unlikely is the speed at which a Maghrebi navy could be made. But Muawiyah first made his navy and assaulted Cyprus in 645
he had both the syrian govenor had access to Tripoli, Beirut, Tyre, Acre, and Jaffa the arabs dont have access to already established major ports example leptis manga has declined for centuries by this point
 
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Now their attentions are drawn across the straits...
In 653, Chindaswinth, king of the Visigoths, died. Replaced by his son Reeceswinth, his ascension was contested by a rebellion by Froia in the Upper Ebro.

The Arabs would use this to invade. Rallying 20,000 men. A quarter to third of which being newly converted Berbers. Giving a larger army that what Tariq bin Ziyad + Musa ibn Nusayr had (18,000).
This would be accompanied by a large fleet, which would've been built up as the Arabs conquered the Maghrebi coast. Since the Visigoths had almost no navy, they would be unchallenged on the seas, allowing attacks on coastal cities all over the Iberian peninsula, with minimal resistance. Potentially even landing troops on the Asturias coast, avoiding the much more difficult mountainous land route.
In fact, the navy could go up the Navigable rivers. Primarily the Guadalquivir to besiege Seville and the Ebro to Zaragoza or potentially as far as Logroño.
Interesting, part of me think the Muslim didn't pressured being overly cautious, maybe a POD is they noticing is that the enemy just need the right punch to feel down and decided to press further? well done and Carthage is a chance away to fall
 
That be even more dificult imo not only have the muslims not gained naval supremacy which means any attempt to bypass the coast would leave the muslims exposed but the romans would help the berbers as the otl
I thought that the empire was too busy in the east, to worry about the semi independent exarchate. Especially with Muawiya's naval build up.

Also it depends on how difficult it is to take Carthage. Historically, Hassan ibn Numan took the surrounding fortresses, then went up to Carthage, the rich and notables had already fled and the remainder of the population surrendered without a fight.
If it's that easy in 647, then they'd take it straight after Sufetula. But I'm unsure of Carthage's state in that time.

I assume it's more difficult, and so the Muslims aren't ready to siege it yet, until they've established a stronger hold on the rest of Maghreb.
But the city would have a few Muslim garrisons in the vicinity, to prevent land contact with Berbers or sallies out of Carthage.

Uqba ibn Nafi managed to reach the Atlantic without having Carthage...
better option would be no first fitnah or a very short one which has massive ramifications but that breathing room allowed Constans II to fortify Africa because while we remember the 670 campaign arab raids were a thing by early 660s and big ones at that.
The whole point of this timeline is to invade Iberia when it's weak due to Froia's rebellion on Reeceswinth's ascension.
If you wait until after 656, even if there isn't a fitna, there isn't another Visigothic rebellion until Recceswinth's death in 672, which is quite late, since Merovingian Frankia is slowly getting more stable as the Pippinid/Carolingians dominate, uniting Austrasia and Neustria. But in 661, Frankia was an absolute mess, the earlier the invasion the better.
Similarly, waiting gives the byzantines the chance to fortify Sicily and Italy, making campaigns more difficult.
Also the Anatolian campaigns seem to be reaching somewhat of a stalemate. Stopping at the Taurus mountains without too many major annexations just raids on the plateau.
I feel like the benefits offered by taking the Maghreb, and subsequently Iberia, giving huge control over most of the Mediterranean, is more than what could be gained from much more difficult and less rewarding Anatolian land campaigns.
Instead, the increased naval dominance would be used to take the Lycian and West Anatolian coasts, which would allow more effective campaigns in the interior.

While having no fitnah would be immensely beneficial, I see that as altering the timeline too much, with too many ramifications.

As long as both Iberia and Maghreb are taken before the fitnah, even if it's only the Maghrebi and Iberian coasts or a key city like Toledo, Tangier, Sufetula etc, these could probably be mostly defended for 4 or 5 years during the fitnah. As soon as it's over, sending troops and fleets back west, to retake what's lost.



The Arab raids of the 660s were just aimed at re-establishing the tribute of Ifriqiyah, not pushing into the Maghreb. That only started with the foundation of the Misr of Qayrawan, wherein Uqba traversed the entire Maghreb.

he had both the syrian govenor had access to Tripoli, Beirut, Tyre, Acre, and Jaffa the arabs dont have access to already established major ports example leptis manga has declined for centuries by this point
Yes, but how long would it take to revitalise a port? A few months, a year, 5? The AbdulMalik ordered the founding of the Dockyard of Tunis in 702, and Ifriqiyan raids on Sardinia, Sicily, Balerics began in 704 onwards, and that was a brand new port.
In 664 a fleet from Barca Cyrenaica raided Sicily. The ports of Barca were probably largely abandoned too, due to the ease of the Muslim conquest.

In the Punic wars, the Romans had no navy and so probably no ports. Yet in only a few months managed to make a navy to rival Carthage, master of the seas. Why can't the Muslims do the same, as long as they place a much greater emphasis on the navy.

The lack of ports in the region further emphasizes the lack of any naval competition in the western Mediterranean, so even a small navy perhaps wholly provided by Levant/Egypt would go a long way initially, while the shipyards of the Maghreb are being built.
Moving Levantine and Egyptian shipwrights (Perhaps even Persians from the gulf, Yemeni/Omani, east Africans or Makrani Meds too?) westwards to quicken the process. The greater timber availability on the Maghreb would help also.

And as long as they establish themselves in Tangier before the Froia's revolt in 653, they'll be able to invade Iberia.
 
Interesting, part of me think the Muslim didn't pressured being overly cautious, maybe a POD is they noticing is that the enemy just need the right punch to feel down and decided to press further? well done and Carthage is a chance away to fall
I don't really understand what your trying to say...

If your saying why aren't the Muslims being cautious. It's because I'm assuming they know about the rebellion, somehow sending spies or reconnaissance forces disguised as traders, ever since reaching Tangier in 651. So hearing about the rebellion they see this as an optimal chance to invade while the enemy's attentions are divided.

They haven't ever faced the Visigoths and wouldn't know much about their strength. But I'm just assuming a decisive battle similar to Guadalete happens. Except that Tariq had 7k at Guadalete, but that was a time when the Visigoths were much more divided than only a small rebellion by Froia. That's why a larger army is sent. They wouldn't have a way of knowing this but I'm assuming the overall size of Maghrebi forces are larger than in 711, so they can devote more to Iberia, or that commanders see Iberia as more potentially valuable than the Maghreb based on small reconnaissance reports.
 
don't really understand what your trying to say...
That I think otl played being very cautious, so the pod is being as you said , getting news that their enemy is divided, that will be the perfect time to struck them.

I loved the naval focus on the tl, something people tend to ignore
 
That I think otl played being very cautious, so the pod is being as you said , getting news that their enemy is divided, that will be the perfect time to struck them.

I loved the naval focus on the tl, something people tend to ignore
I personally the navy as the most important aspect of the early Muslim state.

The most surefire way to conquer Constantinople is a timeline where Umar is pro navy, instead of Anti. This would allow a naval build up as early as 634 in Gaza. Which would speed up the conquest of the Levant, removing the 7 year siege of Ceaserea.
Also allowing a faster conquest of Egypt, and prevention of the Byzantine reconquest of Alexandria in 644.
This would all allow early invasions of Maghreb, Southern Anatolia, Aegean, Sicily, Iberia, Frankia. Meaning that by 670s, the Muslims have complete domination of the Mediterranean and thus making Constantinople easy to conquer.




Meanwhile, the Muslims seem to have a Persian Gulf navy quite early on in Bahrain. With Arfajah and Uthman ibn alThaqafi who raided as far as Thane in Central India.
But this was independent, and against central orders who promptly stopped him from doing that again.

In another timeline, the Persian Gulf navy would receive huge state support, allowing it to go up the Indus and establishing Arab Sindh 70 years earlier in 640s then continuing down Indian coast. Founding Portuguese style fortified ports all throughout the Indian Ocean from The cape to Ryukyu and Papua. Gaining complete domination over the Indian Ocean and thereby immense riches.


Similarly the Muslims did have a red sea navy, which they used to retaliate against Axumite naval raids.
If this too was given huge state support, Axum itself could be invaded, especially since some companions had lived over a decade there and were familiar with the terrain.
This would give a southern Breadbasket to the Hejaz, making it more independent of Egypt and thus more able to withstand a siege such as in 2nd fitnah.


Finally a Caspian navy could be made too at Rasht. Bypassing the Khazars on land, going up the Volga as far as Tver. Also using the nearby Don River and even expending into the Baltic sea
Dominating northern and eastern Europe




But I haven't fully fleshed out this timeline...
 
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I thought that the empire was too busy in the east, to worry about the semi independent exarchate. Especially with Muawiya's naval build up
646 saw a byzantine naval offensive and the future caliph raids were not that life threatening in 647 the first major raid would not be until 649/650 even then by theophanes the Arabs fled when the byzantine navy came and hence they the raids were limited to the islands until their victory at masts
Also it depends on how difficult it is to take Carthage. Historically, Hassan ibn Numan took the surrounding fortresses, then went up to Carthage, the rich and notables had already fled and the remainder of the population surrendered without a fight.
This is because the Berber roman force had been destroyed in 688 not only that Africa had been subject to raids for about 20 years even as late as 688 the byzantines following that disaster sent reinforcement via their navy despite that the Muslims by this point gained naval superiority in the east
If it's that easy in 647, then they'd take it straight after Sufetula. But I'm unsure of Carthage's state in that time
As mentioned the byzantine navy still exist and still has not been decimated by the battle of the mast so while the province has not seen reinforcement as it did in later in the otl forces can it can still be reinforced and the Berber allies still exist
Uqba ibn Nafi managed to reach the Atlantic without having Carthage...
That was just a series of raids big ones but still the Arabs raided Anatolia as far as Lydia doesn't mean they controlled or annex the regions, the Arabs didn't annex the territories and were destroyed in 682


The whole point of this timeline is to invade Iberia when it's weak due to Froia's rebellion on Reeceswinth's ascension.
Making the Muslims conquer all of Africa in 5 years time when the situation is worse than the otl is a hard one wouldn't it be easier just to make the invasion during wamba and hilderic civil war in 672?
which is quite late, since Merovingian Frankia is slowly getting more stable as the Pippinid/Carolingians dominate, uniting Austrasia and Neustria. But in 661, Frankia was an absolute mess, the earlier the invasion the better.
You can still make a french conquest even late let's remember Charles took power in the civil war of 715-718
Also the Anatolian campaigns seem to be reaching somewhat of a stalemate. Stopping at the Taurus mountains without too many major annexations just raids on the plateau.
Because of supplies same with Africa supplies line were overstretched and we don't see massive raids to the interior until the Muslims navy gains it's footing
Instead, the increased naval dominance would be used to take the Lycian and West Anatolian coasts, which would allow more effective campaigns in the interior.
Said dominance was in the east were the major naval bases were let's remember that by this point the caliphate governor's were semi independent so you must convince the caliphate to tell the Syrian governor to send his new fleet which as this point is brand new to the west, despite said fleet was created to take islands that would serve as bases for byzantine raids , so correct me if I'm wrong but you want the eastern fleet to go help in Africa ?

The Arab raids of the 660s were just aimed at re-establishing the tribute of Ifriqiyah, not pushing into the Maghreb. That only started with the foundation of the Misr of Qayrawan, wherein Uqba traversed the entire Maghreb.
Raids do help and there were heavy ones at that it's just that again conquering Africa isn't easy by all the logistical issues presented
Yes, but how long would it take to revitalise a port? A few months, a year, 5? The AbdulMalik ordered the founding of the Dockyard of Tunis in 702, and Ifriqiyan raids on Sardinia, Sicily, Balerics began in 704 onwards, and that was a brand new port.
They actually began before that
In 664 a fleet from Barca Cyrenaica raided Sicily. The ports of Barca were probably largely abandoned too, due to the ease of the Muslim conquest.
The 664 raid actually came from Cyrenaica was conquered in 642
In the Punic wars, the Romans had no navy and so probably no ports. Yet in only a few months managed to make a navy to rival Carthage, master of the seas. Why can't the Muslims do the same, as long as they place a much greater emphasis on the navy.
The Romans build it in 261 the war started in 265 bc also the Romans had smaller fleet since 310 the Arabs had really no fleet before 640s

The lack of ports in the region further emphasizes the lack of any naval competition in the western Mediterranean,
Sicily still existed and constants II build up the existing navy there in his stay
so even a small navy perhaps wholly provided by Levant/Egypt would go a long way initially, while the shipyards of the Maghreb are being built.
Going far west when the actual byzantine navy still exist would be a bad choice imo let's not forget by our sources the battle of the mast nearly ended with the capture of the Muslim admiral if the Muslim fleet didn't feel ready to face the Romans from 649-654 in open battle sending part of it would put it more of disadvantage and have it snowball
 
646 saw a byzantine naval offensive and the future caliph raids were not that life threatening in 647 the first major raid would not be until 649/650 even then by theophanes the Arabs fled when the byzantine navy came and hence they the raids were limited to the islands until their victory at masts

This is because the Berber roman force had been destroyed in 688 not only that Africa had been subject to raids for about 20 years even as late as 688 the byzantines following that disaster sent reinforcement via their navy despite that the Muslims by this point gained naval superiority in the east

As mentioned the byzantine navy still exist and still has not been decimated by the battle of the mast so while the province has not seen reinforcement as it did in later in the otl forces can it can still be reinforced and the Berber allies still exist

That was just a series of raids big ones but still the Arabs raided Anatolia as far as Lydia doesn't mean they controlled or annex the regions, the Arabs didn't annex the territories and were destroyed in 682



Making the Muslims conquer all of Africa in 5 years time when the situation is worse than the otl is a hard one wouldn't it be easier just to make the invasion during wamba and hilderic civil war in 672?

You can still make a french conquest even late let's remember Charles took power in the civil war of 715-718

Because of supplies same with Africa supplies line were overstretched and we don't see massive raids to the interior until the Muslims navy gains it's footing

Said dominance was in the east were the major naval bases were let's remember that by this point the caliphate governor's were semi independent so you must convince the caliphate to tell the Syrian governor to send his new fleet which as this point is brand new to the west, despite said fleet was created to take islands that would serve as bases for byzantine raids , so correct me if I'm wrong but you want the eastern fleet to go help in Africa ?


Raids do help and there were heavy ones at that it's just that again conquering Africa isn't easy by all the logistical issues presented

They actually began before that

The 664 raid actually came from Cyrenaica was conquered in 642

The Romans build it in 261 the war started in 265 bc also the Romans had smaller fleet since 310 the Arabs had really no fleet before 640s


Sicily still existed and constants II build up the existing navy there in his stay

Going far west when the actual byzantine navy still exist would be a bad choice imo let's not forget by our sources the battle of the mast nearly ended with the capture of the Muslim admiral if the Muslim fleet didn't feel ready to face the Romans from 649-654 in open battle sending part of it would put it more of disadvantage and have it snowball
You've won me over.

What about a different POD when Umar is Pro navy instead of against, starting work on the Muslim navy as soon as they take the Southern Levantine ports in 635?
 
You've won me over.

What about a different POD when Umar is Pro navy instead of against, starting work on the Muslim navy as soon as they take the Southern Levantine ports in 635?
I can think of a Pod Heraclius dies later sending his massive army to the egypt lead by Valentinus beating the muslims and taking back territory Heraclius dies and Constantine III is also dead Valentinus quickly leaves egypt as he doesnt want Heraclonas ie martina to take the throne, now leaderless the forces of egypt get pushed back this convinces the caliph he must get a navy to prevent this from occurring again thus the navy gets construction started in late 641.
 
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I can think of a Pod Heraclius dies later sending his massive army to the egypt lead by Valentinus beating the muslims and taking back territory Heraclius dies and Constantine III is also dead Valentinus quickly leaves egypt as he doesnt want Heraclonas ie martina to take the throne, now leaderless the forces of egypt get pushed back this convinces the caliph he must get a navy to prevent this from occurring again thus the navy gets construction started in late 641.
So with an earlier naval build up, is an invasion of Iberia in 653 then Merovingia and Sicily feasible?
Then with an Italian invasion of coastal Balkans and complete domination of the Aegean, as well as a Georgian based Black sea navy attacking from the north, would Constantinople be able to fall by 680?
 
So with an earlier naval build up, is an invasion of Iberia in 653 then Merovingia and Sicily feasible?
Then with an Italian invasion of coastal Balkans and complete domination of the Aegean, as well as a Georgian based Black sea navy attacking from the north, would Constantinople be able to fall by 680?
iberia not likely less France but an earlier build up means Constans II is not given his respite that he used this means in the extra years the Sicilian fleet could be deal with which would muslims near total control of the Mediterranean except for some the byzantine coast, to assure a siege of Constantinople does occur get rid of the inventor of greek fire
or you can work the opposite direction have the roman empire fall and with the caos that follows the collapse of the roman empire then italy would be fully vulnerable and the med would be fully a muslim lake
 
So with an earlier naval build up, is an invasion of Iberia in 653 then Merovingia and Sicily feasible?
Then with an Italian invasion of coastal Balkans and complete domination of the Aegean, as well as a Georgian based Black sea navy attacking from the north, would Constantinople be able to fall by 680?
I think Sicily could take priority than Iberia but if given the chance, Iberia could be easier than Sicily
 
I think Sicily could take priority than Iberia but if given the chance, Iberia could be easier than Sicily
Iberia was under fairly centralised the control of a tiny minority of Visigoths, the rest of the population seems to be demilitarised. So once the Visigoths were decisively defeated at Guadalete, the rest of Iberia put up little resistance, which is why it was so easy to conquer historically, as well as the deep divisions within the Visigothic minority.

Whereas Sicily was being supported by the Byzantines and so could keep receiving external support, making conquest much more difficult. Even if the Syracuse fell, the rest of Sicily would still put up great resistance, supported by the Byzantines. This is why it took some 70 years for the Aghlabids to conquer. Or even for the Normans it took 30.

Iberia also has far more resources and potential wealth than Sicily, and gives access to Atlantic trade with northwestern Europe and a potential invasion of Frankia.
Sicily would drastically increase control over the Mediterranean, and deny the Byzantines a significant region, while also allowing invasions of Southern Italy, while also being quite fertile. But overall I feel as though it gives less than Iberia.

So I think Iberia should be invaded first, especially since the 653 rebellion provides a huge opportunity, that won't be available again until 672. Then using Iberia's resources, and it's Mediterranean coast to assist in the invasion of Sicily.
 
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think Iberia should be invaded first, especially since the 653 rebellion provides a huge opportunity, that won't be available again until 672. Then using Iberia's resources, and it's Mediterranean coast to assist in the invasion of Sicily.
Yeah given a chance like otl 711 earlier they would take it,
 
Iberia was under fairly centralised the control of a tiny minority of Visigoths, the rest of the population seems to be demilitarised. So once the Visigoths were decisively defeated at Guadalete, the rest of Iberia put up little resistance, which is why it was so easy to conquer historically, as well as the deep divisions within the Visigothic minority.
visigothic centralization was quite weaker then you think it was, i recommend the book t The Inheritance of Rome
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I can think of a Pod Heraclius dies later sending his massive army to the egypt lead by Valentinus beating the muslims and taking back territory Heraclius dies and Constantine III is also dead Valentinus quickly leaves egypt as he doesnt want Heraclonas ie martina to take the throne, now leaderless the forces of egypt get pushed back this convinces the caliph he must get a navy to prevent this from occurring again thus the navy gets construction started in late 641

Why so convoluted?
The first Arab naval expeditions were in the Persian gulf under Al-Ala al Hadhrami and his commander Arfajah attacking the Persian coast straight after the ridda wars.
OTL Umar got wind of his naval expeditions and replaced him with Uthman ibn Abi al-As al-Thaqafi. Except he did the same thing but raiding as far as Thane in Central coastal India...


So a TL wherein for some reason Umar is all for these naval forays and actually encourages them, giving them more supplies, men and resources to build up a bigger Persian Gulf navy, with even more extensive raids on India.

Since Umar gave them the green light, when Yazid/Muawiya are besieging Caesarea, they notice the byzantines are able to bypass the siege by boats. This time, when they ask Umar if they can build a navy, he supports them, ideally even transfering some Arabs sailors from the Persian Gulf, once the coastline is secure, giving the Levantine navy a kickstart, reducing total reliance on Christians.

The Levantine navy stopping naval replenishment of Caesarea allowing it to fall years earlier. This navy would then be used to assist in the conquest of Egypt, making it's already remarkably fast conquest slightly faster.
And the navy would follow the initial invasion of Cyrenaica and Tripolitania 643, thus starting the revitalisation of their ports.


Thus in 647, a large Levantine, Egyptian fleet with some ships provided by the new shipyards of Cyrenaica and Tripolitania would accompany the army westwards.
The battle of Sufetula going the same.
But now with a navy, straight after the battle besieging Carthage, taking the city.

Then focusing almost exclusively on the Maghrebi coast, beelining for Tangier. Then using Coastal outposts to conquer further inland.

Stopping Maghrebi campaigns when news comes of Iberia's instability, transfering a large number of Maghrebi troops to Iberia due to easier rewards than against Berbers.
After securing Iberia, returning back to the Maghreb to finish off conquest of the Berbers in their last strongholds....




On another notes:
Umar being pro navy means he would purse more active retaliation against the Ethiopian raid on the Hejazi coast in 641. The Muslim navy directly annexing the Dahlak isles, Adulis and much of the rest of the Eritrean coastal lowlands. Playing a more direct role in Ethiopia.
An invasion of the Highland capital of Axum would be incredibly unlikely. Though perhaps some Companions who had made Hijra to Abyssinia for over a decade could use their knowledge of the terrain to take Axum. More likely is just stronger influence over Abyssinia than OTL.

Oromia was not under Axumite control, but was highly fertile, and OTL became Muslim relatively quickly under Harla kingdom and Shewa Sultanate. This would occur much sooner with Caliphal presence in Eritrean lowlands. Potentially becoming an additional breadbasket of Hejaz reducing reliance on Egypt, though transportation from Oromia to teh coast would be difficult....

From the Eritrean coast, further expansion down the East African coast could begin. Supported directly by the Caliphate instead of independent traders...



Beyond that, active caliphal expansion of a Persian Gulf navy, and support of Uthman ibn Abi al-As type raids against India could potentially result in far earlier and more efficacious Indian conquests. With a strong Muslim (pirate?) presence along the Malabar coast, and gradually the rest of the Indian Ocean.
 
Since Umar gave them the green light, when Yazid/Muawiya are besieging Caesarea, they notice the byzantines are able to bypass the siege by boats. This time, when they ask Umar if they can build a navy, he supports them, ideally even transfering some Arabs sailors from the Persian Gulf, once the coastline is secure, giving the Levantine navy a kickstart, reducing total reliance on Christians.
This was because they did not have much of navy the caliph did not want to engange the romans in the sea as unlike the persians they had a strong navy and with good reason making a navy on 636 would not be ideal so much recourses for a gamble and unlike the otl egypt a pretty big naval base still exist even as late as the time of Constantine IV the romans could do a landing you would have to change Umar and the later caliphs mind Uthman also the muslims in the otl already had naval supremacy in the red sea as early as 640s so nothing really changes there unless you want a aksumite campaing in the 640s but that be pulling troops from rome or Persian fronts.

also while the conquest of egypt was fast the navy would not help much going in to the river would be suicidal and unless they defeat the local roman navy there not going to help much against the siege of alexandria also a navy built in haste going into great exepedition also sounds like disaster waiting to happend the muslims fleet in 654 had years of experience by that point and barely won the battle against its roman counterpart.

hence the wierd pod to have a reason for such quick changes.
 
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