Conquistador Expanded

[R. E. Lee]

30 FAMILIES

Family: Callaghan
Motto: "A light heart lives long"
Sigil: Golden Celtic cross over a green circle, with a harp in the center escutcheon (much like this).
Admittance: 1970

Domain: Southwest Washington between the Coast Range and the Cascades; from the Puget Sound to Portland*
Seat: Tralee [FirstSide Olympia]
Largest Town: Portland (3,500)

History: The Callaghans were the last family to be added to the Committee before the Batyushkovs and Versfelds in the 1990s, and the last of the "European" families to be added in the 1960s (the British-African Chumleys and the French-Algerian Devereaux being the others).

James Callaghan was a Catholic Northern Irishman who served in the British Army in WWII, Korea, and the Mau Mau Uprising. It was here he met Baron Chumley, who in turn introduced him to John Rolfe. After mustering out, he found himself as a moderate in an increasingly divided Ulster. As--to his dismay--violence began to erupt in his homeland, Rolfe offered him an option of a new world where religious differences meant little. Callaghan accepted his offer, and began to recruit like-minded Ulstermen to escape the Troubles, both Catholic and Protestant.

The Callaghan Domain is set apart from the main groupings in the Bay Area, and those along the coast of Southern California, and is the furthest north of all Domains. The weather of FirstSide Washington and Oregon attracted Callaghan because of its relative similarity to Ireland. Callaghan holdings include the town of Portland, with its small but increasing shipyards (now the largest outside of the Bay or San Diego). The tax money from the shipping from the Willamette through Portland alone nets them more than several other Families' independent sources of wealth, as Portland is the port for the vast majority of the farms and lumber of the Willamette Valley.

The Callaghan Family are known to have a friendly rivalry with the O'Brien Family, as one is Irish and the other Irish-American. In addition, many ties of marriage have been made with the Devereaux family, including the wife of the current Prime.

The Portland Rugby Football Club is a disproportionally strong rugby team, making as far as the semi-finals of the 2008 Commonwealth Cup before being defeated by Rolfeston (that year's champion). Gaelic Football is also a minor juvenile sport the in Domain, but for adults is mostly overshadowed by the New Virginia-wide popularity of rugby.



*There are two contradicting passages in Conquistador as to the northern edge of settlement in New Virginia: one states that an 'outpost' in Portland was the northernmost settlement, but in a discussion about the location of Domains is says "a thick clump around the Bay Area, an outlier around the Puget Sound, and another series down the coast of Southern California culminating in a big blotch in the lowlands between Santa Monica and San Diego." I decided to split the difference, and have the Domain extend to the Sound but its largest town be Portland.

 

[modelcitizen]

... Portland!


keep an eye on any and all medieval history professors, but of course.


the Irish are pretty neat for guaranteeing a good source of both poets and police officers.

 

[DaleCoz]

It would be interesting to look at the influence of the settlers on the rest of the Conquistadore time-line. The book looks at Hawaii and the Indians to some extent, but Europe and Asia are going to be affected to some extent. What hints do we have about what happens there, and how can that logically be expanded? For that matter, how does the existence of a modern territory in California affect the rest of North America. The book hints at some of the impacts, but there would be a lot more.

 

[Polish Eagle]

It would be interesting to look at the influence of the settlers on the rest of the Conquistadore time-line. The book looks at Hawaii and the Indians to some extent, but Europe and Asia are going to be affected to some extent. What hints do we have about what happens there, and how can that logically be expanded? For that matter, how does the existence of a modern territory in California affect the rest of North America. The book hints at some of the impacts, but there would be a lot more.

Well, they have territories as far east as Colorado, and down into north-western Mexico. It seems the Aztec-Tarascan descendants have learned steel-working and often buy gunpowder weapons from the New Virginians. It is by no means impossible that those weapons have also found their way into our Indo-European (described as Iranian) China and into Europe. This would suggest that the most powerful states would be those that control the trade routes to New Virginia.

And it's described that France, Britain, Germany, Scandinavia, and Sub-Saharan Africa have not developed far past the point they were at while Alexander was alive. The Slavs seem to be extinct, conquered and assimilated by the Balts (whatup with the Balt-wanking I sometimes see with Classical PODs?). Italy, Iberia, and the Massilia-region are commercial centers, at a "medieval" level of technology, plus printing press. The same seems to apply to Egypt, North Africa, Arabia, Mesopotamia, Greece, Balkans, Turkey, and everything out to central India. The Han Chinese occupy OTL Indochina, while mainland China and Korea, and presumably Mongolia and Siberia, are populated by Indo-Europeans. Dunno about Japan, though.

 

[DaleCoz]

Another way to expand it would be to have the families start expanding into the alternate reality the radio brought them into contact with at the end of the novel. Ground sloths probably mean no humans in the New World, because they would be very vulnerable to human hunting. Does anyone know if Stirling is going to get back to the series and explore that? I'm guessing no with all of the other things he has going on, but that would be cool.

 

[Don Lardo]

if the idea were to be expanded beyond "us white folks" in the later years...

While those are excellent suggestions, and I'd include the Tamils more recently, the despicable "Gentlemanly Klan" thinking behind Stirling's New Virginia means none of those groups will be even considered.

There's another aspect of the book that I found problematic. While Stirling does make mention of a few renegades bugging out to live and teach among the remnants of the tribes remaining along New Virginia's border; one such renegade taught them how to make recurve bows IIRC, there is no instance of a "Walker" type plotting to set up his own little empire among the barbarians as we saw in the ISOT series.

While Stirling may not have wanted to repeat himself outside of his usual repetitive topics like lesbians, bestiality, and cannibalism, the Conquistador set-up actually provides more opportunities for a "Walker" or group of "Walkers" to carve out personal empires. There are many more people to first think of and then make such an attempt, much more in the way of "out-time" goods available either through import or local manufacture, more time in which to accumulate those goods, and much more time in which to plan.

I found it surprising that no one or no group had carved their own little empire kingdom out of the post-plague kingdoms in Central America and that the first serious attempt to grab the Gate away from the control Rolfe and his followers took nearly eight decades to occur.

 

[R. E. Lee]

While those are excellent suggestions, and I'd include the Tamils more recently, the despicable "Gentlemanly Klan" thinking behind Stirling's New Virginia means none of those groups will be even considered.

There's another aspect of the book that I found problematic. While Stirling does make mention of a few renegades bugging out to live and teach among the remnants of the tribes remaining along New Virginia's border; one such renegade taught them how to make recurve bows IIRC, there is no instance of a "Walker" type plotting to set up his own little empire among the barbarians as we saw in the ISOT series.

While Stirling may not have wanted to repeat himself outside of his usual repetitive topics like lesbians, bestiality, and cannibalism, the Conquistador set-up actually provides more opportunities for a "Walker" or group of "Walkers" to carve out personal empires. There are many more people to first think of and then make such an attempt, much more in the way of "out-time" goods available either through import or local manufacture, more time in which to accumulate those goods, and much more time in which to plan.

I found it surprising that no one or no group had carved their own little empire kingdom out of the post-plague kingdoms in Central America and that the first serious attempt to grab the Gate away from the control Rolfe and his followers took nearly eight decades to occur.

It's because the Gate is central to power in the other world. The Afrikaners spoke wistfully of a new South Africa over there, but the saner voice said "what about when your cars and guns break down? How will you replace them? And the only oil well in the world is fifty miles that way, good luck finding any more." It's just so much harder to establish and maintain a power base in the Conquistador-verse without the Gate, relative to New Virginia; that's why the coup centered on taking control of it.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Don, it was only 60+ years and apparently the plan took at least a decade to be put in place because security was a major obstacle in the Commonwealth, but also because so long as the original family heads survived none of them was willing to go against Rolfe, as he was a close personal friend who had made them all fabulously wealthy.

There were a few hints about security, particularly the Germans, where Rolfe makes a comment to Perlmutter that surely Sol doesn't think he trusts them.



As for empire building, given that an empire is liable to be spotted and that renegades are apparently not tolerated it would seem that any renegades had better get used to the primitive life as the Commonwealth will hunt them on sight and any natives probably know that rewards will be generous to any who turns such people in.



A more interesting idea might be Good Star who was 'given a whole country', presumably complete with tools, muskets and other generous support as Rolfe does take his word seriously and his granddaughter owes Good Star her life and that of her husband to be. Since he also acquired an undetermined amount of modern tech and armaments he's liable to be completely secure so long as he doesn't provoke the Commonwealth but what might he do with his new position as king of an entire nation?

Obvious suggestions include developing the use of iron or learning to produce gunpowder. Given a few students like King Good Star who attended missionary schools I wouldn't rule out a late 18th or early 19th Century tech base in a generation.

 

[Don Lardo]

Don, it was only 60+ years and apparently the plan took at least a decade to be put in place because security was a major obstacle in the Commonwealth, but also because so long as the original family heads survived none of them was willing to go against Rolfe, as he was a close personal friend who had made them all fabulously wealthy.

Okay 60 years then, but the idea that no one tried to set out on their own is more of Stirling's bullshit.

It wouldn't be the Family elites either, it would be the people just one or two rungs below the Family elites instead, all the upper echelon types who are used to a more fluid social system than the system Rolfe and his cronies have set up for themselves and who are no longer satisfied with what slice of the pie is allowed them.

As for empire building, given that an empire is liable to be spotted...

Given the trouble they had just getting a small team into the area to scout out the boot camp the Russian/Coletta faction had set up, I don't think they're doing regular long range sweeps looking for renegade kingdoms. They've neither the logistics, assets, or manpower for that.

... and that renegades are apparently not tolerated it would seem that any renegades had better get used to the primitive life...

A primitive life in power rather than a comfortable one based on the crumbs Rolfe hands out? You don't think someone in the hundreds of thousands in New Virginia might see that as an improvement? Or even desirable?

... as the Commonwealth will hunt them on sight...

Which assumes they would remain within easy sight of the Commonwealth or her traders. The entirety of Central and South America beckon, as does Asia.

... and any natives probably know that rewards will be generous to any who turns such people in.

Except those natives who either fear their new masters more or know they'll receive more in the long term from them.

A schooner or two of renegades with a carefully built up selection of supplies and knowledge could "lose" themselves in the world of Conquistador for years before the Commonwealth stumbled across them. It took decades for Britain to "find" the crew of the Bounty and she had more assets available for that search than the Commonwealth does.

It most likely won't be the Commonwealth who finds the renegades. Instead, the renegades will reveal themselves to the Commonwealth. After the renegades are settled and too large/distant for the Commonwealth to easily whack, one of their ships will appear off a Hawaii or San Diego or, more plausibly, will contact a Commonwealth ship in an Asian trade port and propose a trade deal.

For example, Rolfe and his wretched band of Ku Klux Klan pirates need gold for both their internal economy and trade on First Side, so trading gold for various First Side goods would be a win-win situation. The Commonwealth cannot dispatch a punitive expedition that far beyond their borders, so trading with the now established renegades is a better solution as it at least gives the Commonwealth some idea of what the other bunch of First Siders and near First Siders are up to.

A more interesting idea might be Good Star...

He's just a "Good Injun" and will be treated as such by Rolfe and his despicable descendants. He'll get just enough goodies to stay bought and not enough to actually accomplish anything. He and his will eventually be assimilated, although they'll probably be on the wrong side of the color line for generations.

Besides, however Good Stars story plays out, that's in the future. I'm more interested in why someone didn't pull a "Rolfe" on Rolfe during the last 60 years or so and the only real reason I can see for it not happening is that Stirling can't let his personal insert be bested in any real manner.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I like thinking up families because all the alternate history possibilities of the OtherSide aside, it's really just a zoo for a who's who of racist classist white people of the 20th century. There's so many types and assortments with such neat heraldry!

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Anyone want to take over for the departed R.E. Lee's place as actual contributor to this thread

 

[Tyr]

I love the idea of Iranians fleeing the Islamic Revolution and settling in Iran. Come to think of it, they would have been a great source of immigration; why wasn't one of the Thirty Families from Pahlavi Iran? I don't buy that religion would be a factor, because the nominal Shi'aism of that group of Iranians wouldn't be that much more offensive to the Rolfes' nominal Episcopal sensibilities as the Jews or Orthodox Christians who also get in the Thirty Families.

You've got some good ideas here. Keep it up.

It was written by Stirling. He isn't big on muslims to say the least.

 

[DaleCoz]

I do like the Indians in this book better than his usual ones, though he does have most of them being susceptible to smallpox forever because they don't have a big enough population for it to become endemic. It might work that way, but I'm guessing they would figure out behavioral defenses like variolation eventually.

 

[superkuf]

We don't know if anyone had tried to size the Gate / overthrow Rolfe before, but been silently executed. Just as classic feodalism the nobility wants to present a unified, diginified and reliable front to the serfs. Rolf could very well have kept this secret form his granddaughter.

 

[chris N]

Excellent discussion. Always thought that this book needed a sequel.

 

[modelcitizen]

Regardless of if Stirling had pondered a New Virginian going "renegade" more early and more often for Conquistador, he seems to have let the idea catch up with him for IslandInTheSeaOfTimeEtc. In that series, you get Walker being Bad Breakaway, and the Good Breakaway folks go to Argentina, etc.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

The difference was that the breakaway effort in Nantucket was all one group with the 'good' faction unwittingly setting themselves up as a diversion to buy Walker's crowd an additional year to set up his own base while being able to steal a ship carrying everything intended to set up a self-sufficient base in Europe.

Also Nantucket had vastly fewer resources, manpower, and so forth. That's why Walker got an extra year to set up, Nantucket literally couldn't go after both breakaway factions at the same time. Also no air force, no armor...in the case of New Virginia it is by no means clear that an individual renegade can do much unless he/she is the proverbial polymath gifted in a whole range of appropriate skills while a group large enough and well-equipped enough to do so is much less likely to get away.

Also, where do they go?

No one in North America is going to like them and there is always the grave risk of New Virginia offering a generous prize to return or report them, or a ruthless punishment if not reported.

Any other area populated with non-whites leads to the fact that this is the land of white bigots and eventual merger through intermarriage with non-whites is liable to bother the renegades. Which reduces the area these renegades can go to dramatically.

Unfortunately they're on the wrong side of the world to head to Europe and again there is no place they can go and not be spotted. If they join any of the more civilized states in the Med one or more of their rivals will inevitably cry out to the next New Virginian ship to pass by* and if they join the barbaric territories they have much further to go before they achieve much and the civilized states further south will again report them.




Don Lardo, a life of wealth and power in the bronze or iron age versus middle class affluence in the equivalent of late 20th Century America is a more dramatic choice than you may realize. And on two points...

1) New Virginia already has an absurd amount of gold, gems, and so forth so it doesn't need more, least of all from renegades, and especially not if it encourages more renegades.

2) This isn't Nantucket versus Walker, where it took a decade to field a tiny air force worthy of 1915 and a navy centered on a few mid-19th Century frigates backed by a single armored ship of uncertain seaworthiness. This is a nation with an air force from the late 1940s, with mechanized forces from our own tech level so there won't be any prospect of building up forces until they were too large to be easily dealt with. A battalion of mechanized troops with some WWII bombers will settle any opposition, even given years of tech improvement.


*If not for a reward or out of fear of New Virginia then out of simple common sense that a tech boost for an enemy/rival which you lack is never a good thing from your perspective.

 

[The Doctor]

I liked the book, but I did not like the way that modern society was trying to be "imported" to the "new world". For the people and the time that stirling used, I can see such views and misconceptions existing, but I see them to some extant leaving the bigotry behind like OTL has tried to do. I also do not agree with the way tha people seemed to be chosen or picked to come to this new land....

I hope to see more of your own expansion of this work.

 

[Tyr]

As I've said in a past thread about it the thing that really got me about Conquistador is how the hell did they set up the nation originally?
Sure you say, the nazis wanted somewhere to hide...but they're just going to agree to become feudal peasents to a bunch of Americans once they're on the other side?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Anyone else want to do a write-up of another of the Thirty Families, or of the 23? (Callaghan isn't actually one of the names listed in Stirling's appendix, but whatever he had weird family names among the Thirty like a family named "Ball" and another named "Fest" that don't even seem to conform to any colorful caucasian ethnicities.)