Confederate Victory at Glorietta Pass

What if the Confederate invasion of New Mexico was not defeated at the Glorietta Pass? This battle, known as the "Gettysburg of the West," was the turning point in the far western theater and put down Confederate ambitions of an "Arizona territory" (OTL New Mexico).

According to "The Bonanza West," William Gilpin, the territorial governor of Colorado, raised local troops and paid them with drafts on the nat'l treasury amounting to roughly $400,000. Washington did not honor them at first, but later paid them. Gilpin's forces helped defeat the Confederates at Glorietta Pass.

Let's take the POD that perhaps these drafts on the treasury aren't honored and Gilpin has to disband his army. Without the Colorado troops, will the Confederates win? If so, how much damage can they do? "The Bonanza West" posits that they could potentially invade Colorado, and I had the notion of them carrying gold and silver back to the Confederacy proper to help prolong the war, or requiring Union forces be sent from the East, impinging on campaigns that were important in OTL.

Do y'all agree? Any thoughts?
 
Intial success at best, but nothing long term or significant. Seizing enough gold, and successfully getting it back to Confederate Territory, I think also slim. Tho it does sound like the plot for a Hollywood movie. Had an initial raid succeeded the Federal Government would have sent regular forces to secure and guard critical locations. There is only so much that can be taken out on pack animal and wagons.

Any gold seized would not have prolonged the war, tho it could cause a diversion of men and material from other fronts; which would have ended the war. The North has the manpower to divert to other fronts.
 
"Tho it does sound like the plot for a Hollywood movie."

Hmmm...thanks for the idea. :)

"Any gold seized would not have prolonged the war, tho it could cause a diversion of men and material from other fronts; which would have ended the war"

It wouldn't? I thought one of the Confederacy's problems was that its money eventually became worthless. Some gold might help. Besides, how much Confederate men and materiel would get eaten up by a Confederate campaign in the West? I don't know how many soldiers the Confederates had in the army beaten @ Glorietta, but it might be enough to do damage without needing much in reinforcements.
 
We're not talking about tons of gold here, and thats the problem. Whatever is retrieve will aid the Confederacy to a degree, but nothing where the war will be prolonged longer than a few days. The gold is converted into specie and is either kept at home to bolster the failing Confederate dollar or sent overseas to purchase material - which must pass through the blockade going and coming. Everything takes time, which the Confederacy does not have.
 
Matt Quinn said:
What if the Confederate invasion of New Mexico was not defeated at the Glorietta Pass? This battle, known as the "Gettysburg of the West," was the turning point in the far western theater and put down Confederate ambitions of an "Arizona territory" (OTL New Mexico).

According to "The Bonanza West," William Gilpin, the territorial governor of Colorado, raised local troops and paid them with drafts on the nat'l treasury amounting to roughly $400,000. Washington did not honor them at first, but later paid them. Gilpin's forces helped defeat the Confederates at Glorietta Pass.

Let's take the POD that perhaps these drafts on the treasury aren't honored and Gilpin has to disband his army. Without the Colorado troops, will the Confederates win? If so, how much damage can they do? "The Bonanza West" posits that they could potentially invade Colorado, and I had the notion of them carrying gold and silver back to the Confederacy proper to help prolong the war, or requiring Union forces be sent from the East, impinging on campaigns that were important in OTL.

Do y'all agree? Any thoughts?

Actually, the real aim of Sibley's campaign wasn't Colorado. The real prize was California. It was intended that, once Fort Union and the supplies there were in Confederate hands, Sibley's army would transport those supplies to Tucson (where the Confederates had established an advanced post under Captain Sherod Hunter), and from there, invade California via the Colorodo River crossings at Fort Yuma. It was estimated that as many as 10,000 Southern sympathisers could be rallied to the Confederate cause once a Confederate military force was in California, and the arms and supplies captured at Fort Union would be used to equip them, giving the Confederates a fighting chance to take over the State. If the Confederates had somehow managed to capture and hold California for a short time, they may have been able to get hold of enough gold to make a difference. But overall, their chances of carrying off this fantastic scheme were pretty slim.
 
Matt Quinn said:
The Confederates wanted to invade California? That scheme's so crazy that it's either going to work or fail catastrophically.

yep...that was the plan. I personally think it was pretty crazy, but then the idea of trying to conquer the entire southwest with under 3,000 men was pretty crazy to begin with. Sometimes crazy ideas work, though. LOL
 
If the Confederates had actually gotten into California, what could they have done? They'd have 3-odd thousand regular soldiers and a good number of sympathizers who could serve as irregulars. Were there any populations that weren't very pro-US (Native Americans, Mexican landowners who'd lost their lands, etc) who could also ally with the Confederates?

How many soldiers did the Union have in California?
 
Mexican landowners would of joined the Confederate cause, and Native Americans might have. With a high rate of success, the Confederate government would given the rmies invading California more men.
 
Colorado residents had many exsoutherners

Colorado, California, Nevada, etc, had many ex southerners. Mostly the exsoutherners were people who were unhappy with the culture and less than democratic leadership of the south. They fought in the Union army, mostly. All the border states quickly went Union. Ironically, it took more US troops to hold down New York City than anyplace else away from the Confederate armies.
Also, the population of Texas wasn't very high at the time. The Californians would have laughed at an invasion army. Nevada and California had lots more people than Texas. Colorado might have had it's mines shut down by an invasion, but the miners that whipped the Texans at Glorieta would never have worked the mines for the Texans if the governor hadn't raised an army to defeat them.
 
Matt Quinn said:
If the Confederates had actually gotten into California, what could they have done? They'd have 3-odd thousand regular soldiers and a good number of sympathizers who could serve as irregulars. Were there any populations that weren't very pro-US (Native Americans, Mexican landowners who'd lost their lands, etc) who could also ally with the Confederates?

How many soldiers did the Union have in California?

Well, if we assume the Confederates actually get into California, then we also have to assume that they have already met and disposed of most of the Union forces available for defense of the State. Allow me to explain...In OTL, these forces consisted of several regiments of Infantry and Cavalry which were organized into a Brigade called the California Column. This brigade was commanded by General James Henry Carleton, and, by the time of the battle of Glorietta Pass, was massed at Fort Yuma on the Colorado River in preparation for an invasion of the Confederate Territory of Arizona. Indeed, some advanced units were already in Arizona, skirmishing with Confederate troops under the command of Captain Sherod Hunter.

So, for this scenario to work, Sibley would have had to take Fort Union, transport the supplies there back to Mesilla (present-day Las Cruces, New Mexico, the capital of the Confederate Territory of Arizona), and then march to Tucson to link up with Captain Hunter's forces. He would probably have arrived at Tucson in mid-to-late May 1862...which is about the time that the California Column arrived there. So we can anticipate a big battle at Tucson, say on or about May 20, 1862.

In all likelihood, Captain Hunter would have been informed of Sibley's imminent arrival with reinforcements, and thus would have begun conducting guerilla operations in the rear of the California Column. The California column depended on supplies which were stored at various points...primarily at abandoned stations of the old Butterfield Overland Stagecoach route...along it's route of march from California to Tucson. For obvious reasons, food and fodder were rather scarce in the Arizona desert in 1862, and if some of those stations could have been destroyed, along with the supplies in them, that would have been a severe problem for the California Column, especially if they had to retreat toward California from Tucson. Hunter had, in fact, been following such a strategy before the arrival of the Column in Arizona, and this had delayed the progress of the Column for over a month (otherwise, the Column would have been in Tucson in early April). So it is reasonable to assume he would have done so again.

If we assume the Confederates are victorious at the Battle of Tucson, then, the Californians would likely have found that their supply depots, or a good many of them, no longer existed. Under those conditions, they may not have been able to safely return to California, and would have retreated to Fort Barrett, which was located on the Gila River about 30 miles south of present-day Phoenix. If we assume that Sibley's forces are in close pursuit, then there may be a second battle at this place. Again, assuming the Confederates are victorious, then the California Column may be forced to surrender, as the loss of Fort Barrett would deprive them of their only major supply depot capable of sustaining the Column for any significant amount of time in Arizona.

If the California Column is thus eliminated, there are not a lot of forces left to defend California. Fort Yuma, where another large Union supply depot existed, would have easily fallen to the Confederates. It was estimated at the time that a majority of the population of southern California, and a good portion of northern California's population, was composed of southerners who could be expected to rally to the Confederate cause. Upon capturing Fort Yuma, Sibley would have found Dan Showalter and about 100 other Confederate sympathisers who had earlier been captured while trying to leave California and go to join the Confederacy. Showalter was a very popular politician in California, and with Judge David Terry, another influential Californian who would later travel to Texas to join the Confederacy, would likely have been able to raise significant numbers of troops for Sibley.

So it is very possible that with these reinforcements, Sibley could have marched north and captured the gold fields, and more importantly, San Francisco, including the Mint, the various banks, and other repositories of gold and silver boullion. And they could have probably held it for a while, several months at least, as there was no fast way to get reinforcements to California from the East.

Whether they would have tried to get the gold and silver boullion back to the Confederacy is unlikely, and indeed, they really did not need to do so. All they had to do was to get it into the hands of their agents in Europe. This could have been done by transporting it to the port of Guaymas in the Mexican state of Sonora, whose governor, Ignacio Pesqueira, had reached an agreement with Confederate envoy James Reily in March 1862 and would almost certainly have cooperated with the Confederates in so doing. British and French ships could have then transported the gold and silver to Europe, where agent James Bulloch and others would have suddenly found their efforts to procure arms and ships for the South much simplified. Union naval vessels would probably not have dared to stop the British and French vessels on the high seas, for fear of sparking another TRENT AFFAIR.

The capture of California by the Confederates could also have had another major impact...recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France.

Either way, the successful conclusion of Sibley's campaign with the capture of California could have been a war-winning move on the part of the Confederacy. But it would have required that a very long string of hurdles be successfully crossed...1) capture Fort Union and it's supplies; 2) eliminate or contain the Union force at Fort Craig, New Mexico; 3) eliminate the California Column; 4) capture the Union supply depot at Fort Yuma.

So, as I said before, it was a pretty crazy scheme. But if EVERYTHING went right for the Confederates, it could have been a war winner.

By the way, if you want to read more about the campaign in Arizona and the personalities involved in it, visit the following site...

http://members.tripod.com/~azrebel/page5.html.

There are some very detailed articles there that I have written over the years on the campaigns in the southwest that you might find very interesting.
 
wkwillis said:
Colorado, California, Nevada, etc, had many ex southerners. Mostly the exsoutherners were people who were unhappy with the culture and less than democratic leadership of the south. They fought in the Union army, mostly.

Not actually true. Most southerners in the territories sat out the war and did not take sides, and probably held pro-Confederate sentiments but had no realistic way to express those sentiments. They were too far from the Confederacy to have realistic hope of support from the South, so they did the safe thing and waited to see how events would turn out. Several thousand of them did actually travel to Texas, via Mexico, and join the Confederate army, and many others tried to do so but failed (either captured by Yankee border patrols or simply ran out of money in Mexico before they could reach Texas). The spectacle of a victorious Confederate army in California...and the prospect of immediate Confederate support...could easily have changed all that.
 
Hmmm, very interesting scenario- I agree that it would've been either a spectacular success or an abysmal failure for the CS.

Another issue: weren't a lot of US troopers garrisoning the frontier during the CW also ex-Confederates- that is, 'galvanised Yankees' who were Confederate POWs given the option of goin out west to fight the redskins instead of sittin out the war in a camp ? How significant an effect would a greater Confederate push west have had on the ex-Rebs ?
 
Melvin Loh said:
Hmmm, very interesting scenario- I agree that it would've been either a spectacular success or an abysmal failure for the CS.

Another issue: weren't a lot of US troopers garrisoning the frontier during the CW also ex-Confederates- that is, 'galvanised Yankees' who were Confederate POWs given the option of goin out west to fight the redskins instead of sittin out the war in a camp ? How significant an effect would a greater Confederate push west have had on the ex-Rebs ?

Well, that was true from late 1863 onward. The Union didnt start making galvanized Yankees out of Confederate POWs until then. By that time, the Confederate push in the west was over for almost a year.
 
Ah yes, the campaign that involved 'Scudahoo Scudahey', the slang invented to describe the bold and valiant effort to disrupt the CSA column through the use of exploding mules. Glorious, simply glorious...

Wouldn't the US Pacific Squadron be able to blockade San Francisco, along with the forts there?
 
Grimm Reaper said:
Ah yes, the campaign that involved 'Scudahoo Scudahey', the slang invented to describe the bold and valiant effort to disrupt the CSA column through the use of exploding mules. Glorious, simply glorious...

LOL yes, Paddy Grayson's mule fiasco. I had almost forgotten about that.

Grimm Reaper said:
Wouldn't the US Pacific Squadron be able to blockade San Francisco, along with the forts there?

Yes. The U.S. Navy could blockade any of the California ports. Which is why the Confederates would want to transport the gold down to Guaymas and load it on British and French ships there. The U.S. Navy could not legally blockade the port of a neutral nation.
 
was going to start a new thread on this, but did a search and found MP's old thread, so.... thread necromancy!!

Actually, there's a simpler POD for Confederate victory at Glorietta Pass than 'no Coloradan troops' (something I find unlikely because they volunteered en masse because they were bored and itching for a fight). The Confederates technically won the actual combat part, driving the Unionists out of their positions. However, they lost the strategic part of the battle when a small force of Union cavalry bypassed the whole battle and found their way to the Confederate supply dump. They burned 73 wagons worth of military supplies and killed 500 horses and mules. This was ghastly for the Confederates, and put them immediately into an impossible situation... they retreated the next day, and didn't stop until they were all back in Texas.
The union cavalry found their way to the supply dump because they were led by a local man. If we want to assume a CSA victory at Glorietta Pass, then the best POD is for this man to have been killed or never find his way to the Unionists. So, we would have Sibley with roughly 2000 men to invade Colorado, which he intended to do. What next?
I think the Confederates would have still been forced to retreat, for two reasons. First, their supply line was precarious, because it stretched for so long through so much desert. Reinforcements could only move in small groups to avoid drying up the waterholes, and allowing them to replenish before the next group arrived.
Second, Col. Canby was still in Fort Craig with 1200 men. Sibley bypassed it earlier because he lacked the strength to assault it (particularly artillery), and winning Glorietta wouldn't change that. The CA Column (not sure how many men were in that) was on the way to reinforce him. Canby was perfectly situated to strike Sibley's supply lines, and Sibley couldn't take the fort. He'd be holding a chain of forts from south to north across NM, but would have to heavily garrison them all. He'd likely have to request artillery reinforcements to take Fort Craig before going anywhere else.
So, it'd come down to reinforcements... who'd get the most there first?
 
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