wasn't sure to post this question in before or after 1900 forums so i went here. my teacher and I were having a discussion a couple of days ago that if the Confederate states of america won the civil war and remained independent, if it would side with the axis powers in world war 2 personally I think that it would because it would hate the united states and it would have been even more segregated at that time between blacks and whites, which was like how germany was segregated against jews. my teacher didn't think that because an overwhelming amount of its trade would go to the united states and the other allies. discuss.
Confederate states of america:allies or axis
- Thread starter Dustin
- Start date
please tell me you're joking? you do get if you change something in the past the rest of history doesn't stay the same, there would be no WWII if the CSA won the American Civil War.
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
A (somehow) successful secession by the Confederacy from the United States would effectively get rid of world history as we know it, for certain we would never see the same World War Two.
JSmith
Banned
I think so.Especially if Germany and Italy still come into existence. Wouldn't the successful creation of the CSA only add impetus to nationalist movements in Europe and the rest of the world ? All those new countries competing with the older ones probably means war(s) at some point ?
JSmith
Banned
As far as wether the CSA would be with the Allies or the Axis it depends on the path they all took. If were are talking about a similar path as per OTL then the CSA (and USA) would likely side with the Allies. However I think that the fact that Britain and France would play some role in the establishment of the CSA would likely push the USA into the arms of another power that's not Britain and France -ie Germany. Does something authoritarian like fascism and communism arise in the Western world-probably. So where the CSA falls would depend on where its natural( as per development) allies end up I think.
so their could easily be a war between the older countries(US, UK, France, Russia) and the newer ones(CSA, Germany, Italy) at some point and basically except the CSA those were the same countries who fought world war 2 in europe.
ah yes i almost forgot that britain would likely have allied with the CSA after gettysburg if the CSA had won. which would make the csa britains ally or perhaps even colony, which would turn the usa against britain
JRScott
Banned
Ultimately the USA and Confederacy being much smaller states probably did not have the impact they had in events after the American Civil War, this could mean that there is a French Installed Monarchy in Mexico, it means the Spanish-American War will go differently and WWI would.
It would be a different world politically and militarily.
However not knowing the results of those events entirely and going by the long time feelings even today present in the USA it is likely the CSA and the USA would be in a staring contest with one another, thus necessitating them being more neutral to the rest of the world as if they move their forces away they could fear the other would attack them. In essence North America would largely be in a Cold War in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century. This doesn't mean they wouldn't build stuff and trade it to the others but they would be loathe to move their own forces out of North America.
It would be a different world politically and militarily.
However not knowing the results of those events entirely and going by the long time feelings even today present in the USA it is likely the CSA and the USA would be in a staring contest with one another, thus necessitating them being more neutral to the rest of the world as if they move their forces away they could fear the other would attack them. In essence North America would largely be in a Cold War in the later part of the 19th and early 20th century. This doesn't mean they wouldn't build stuff and trade it to the others but they would be loathe to move their own forces out of North America.
IF the UK allied with the CSA that is. They may recognize it as a power, which France would then follow suite with to pursue their own interests with in Mexico. Britain may support the CSA by breaking the blockade in order to bring a speedy end to the war ect, but that is the extent. France is the only one likely to provide them with material aid.
In the aftermath though, Britain would be anxiously eyeing French activities in Mexico, the US would be smoldering at both nations intervention (well except maybe the merchants in the North) and France would be doing her level best to become the powerhouse of the continent.
From there it depends on Mexico to see how Bismark would react and so on and so forth.
could you explain to me what these "butterflies" are, because i don't think you mean the pretty bugs.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
From an old short story I think it was called the butterfly effect
Go back in time and step on a butterfly and the whole future changes, it is because of chaos theory, every chaotic system will be different after history changes, and that includes things like weather and fertilization, these small changes add up and become huge pretty quick
so essentially that the CSA winning the war could mean that america is recolonized or th us splits up or something like that?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Not quite that extreme, those go against long term trends and have issues in carrying out, but it does mean that people like FDR, Hitler, Churchill Stalin and Mussolini are not born, and everything they are involved with changes or does not occur
but wouldn't an equivalent version to those people still be born in TTL like Hadolf Itler or something like that?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Not necessarily, getting an identical genetic code is impossible, and even so you need someone in the proper place, with the proper skills, background and motivations
You could get someone similar to them, but you could also not get someone