Competition to Christianity in a World Without Islam

[Silver01]

Honestly there's a pretty good TL in this site called "Dunes of the Desert" where it's a world without Islam and it explores all the consequences of that, it's a very good read, especially because the authors took care to explore the butterflies well and how they end up reshaping the world. In that TL,Christianity is the biggest religion in the world(and growing) but Manicheism, while not exactly close behind, is the closest thing it has to a rival.

sad that he did not make past the 14th century his work was a great inspiration

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

sad that he did not make past the 14th century his work was a great inspiration

Honestly I don't mind it, the fact they got that far is amazing on the first place, few TLs manage to get that far and the fact they finished on their own terms is a good ending as any.

 

[Silver01]

Honestly I don't mind it, the fact they got that far is amazing on the first place, few TLs manage to get that far and the fact they finished on their own terms is a good ending as any.

Yeah he was a great inspiration

 

[GigglePuffs]

What schism? Without Islam the Pope may never achieve the political independence from the Roman Empire for a schism to even be on the cards.

Perhaps if the Eastern Romans never lost control of Italia Emperor Maurice's plans of dividing the Empire between his sons would have gone through and their could have been a revived Roman state in the west. Assuming this state survives or doesn't get reabsorbed (which is certainly possible) I don't think it unlikely at all to imagine that this could foment a schism between east and west, with the Emperors in Rome and Constantinople competing over who gets to appoint the Popes and if the Pope in Rome has authority over the other autonomous churches, most importantly Constantinople. It's also important to consider the status of the other churches in the Pentarchy, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria, and what their stances would be since they aren't subordinate to Muslim rulers in this timeline.

 

[Silver01]

Perhaps if the Eastern Romans never lost control of Italia Emperor Maurice's plans of dividing the Empire between his sons would have gone through and their could have been a revived Roman state in the west. Assuming this state survives or doesn't get reabsorbed (which is certainly possible) I don't think it unlikely at all to imagine that this could foment a schism between east and west

in the otl we had three east west splits before 1054, and one can also make the case that 7th century nearly started another, the first two were due to the east attempt to reconciliate with chalcedon in any attempt to comprimise the west did not stand for it not for zeno, the division over the three chapters or heraclius compromise, so if it does occur it likely be for that reason.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Perhaps if the Eastern Romans never lost control of Italia Emperor Maurice's plans of dividing the Empire between his sons would have gone through and their could have been a revived Roman state in the west. Assuming this state survives or doesn't get reabsorbed (which is certainly possible) I don't think it unlikely at all to imagine that this could foment a schism between east and west, with the Emperors in Rome and Constantinople competing over who gets to appoint the Popes and if the Pope in Rome has authority over the other autonomous churches, most importantly Constantinople. It's also important to consider the status of the other churches in the Pentarchy, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria, and what their stances would be since they aren't subordinate to Muslim rulers in this timeline.

I wouldn't count on it, the Byzantines had several problems that would've prevented them from getting their old borders back. Even without Islam they would have to deal with the Slavs moving in, Arab migrations, the discontent from the Copts and Monophsyites in Egypt and the Levant, not to mention their own way of running things that really makes it likely to have civil wars and succession crisis. While they would be in a better position than OTL and would certainly be able to hold to the southern parts of Italy, Justinian's dream of reuniting the old borders of the empire is long gone and dead, for good reasons I might add, and that focusing on securing the "core" areas of the empire plus some more is good and well enough instead of trying to expand beyond what the empire can handle.

 

[Silver01]

I wouldn't count on it, the Byzantines had several problems that would've prevented them from getting their old borders back. Even without Islam they would have to deal with the Slavs moving in,

Depends on the pod Maurice by 602 had kicked the slavs and Avars so much he started the Avar decline and the defeats of the tribes was so bad that even after loosing a lot in Persia war of 602 the Balkans didn't collapse till after the disastrous battle of Antioch

Arab migrations

Yeah this would be the biggest issue

, the discontent from the Copts and Monophsyites in Egypt and the Levant,

Not really Jonh Moorhead wrote a book about this the Monophysite( well Miaphysites true Monophysites were condemned by both ) really didn't have any large anti roman tendencies Heraclius was actively looking for a compromise and it was popular even with an earlier pod Maurice attitude towards them was I don't care

not to mention their own way of running things that really makes it likely to have civil wars and succession crisis.

Yeah this is true but again depends on the pod

While they would be in a better position than OTL and would certainly be able to hold to the southern parts of Italy, Justinian's dream of reuniting the old borders of the empire is long gone and dead, for good reasons I might add, and that focusing on securing the "core" areas of the empire plus some more is good and well enough instead of trying to expand beyond what the empire can handle.

Yeah with no Islam it's possible for something like consolation in Africa or even to unite Italy if constants in 663 nearly reconquered Benevento a larger empire would be better but they are not going to go of conquering the franks