Claudius never invades Britain - where does he get his easy win from?

[lightningbearer90]

Claudius desperately needed a military victory at the beginning of his principate in order to shore up his credibility as Emperor. Caligula had already set the wheels in motion for a potential invasion of Britannia but bottled it. With the benefit of hindsight, Roman Britain was a great waste of resources, 4 legions in one distant province is a vast waste of manpower needed elsewhere.

Only Nero seems to have considered leaving Britain but say Claudius never invaded in the first place, after all Augustus and Tiberias already considered Britain as practically part of the Empire anyway sending tribute and with some Roman friendly native rulers.

What if Claudius and his advisers were a little more ambitious or daring, Germania Magna does not seem to be a practical goal in my opinion, sparsely populated and with negative memories of the Teutoburg Forest loss still relatively recent in 41. A longer campaign against the Moors in Mauretania (already started by Caligula) pushing further into North West Africa may have worked, perhaps a Dacian campaign?

Any thoughts?

 

[Iron_Lord]

Claudius desperately needed a military victory at the beginning of his principate in order to shore up his credibility as Emperor. Caligula had already set the wheels in motion for a potential invasion of Britannia but bottled it. With the benefit of hindsight, Roman Britain was a great waste of resources, 4 legions in one distant province is a vast waste of manpower needed elsewhere.

Only Nero seems to have considered leaving Britain but say Claudius never invaded in the first place, after all Augustus and Tiberias already considered Britain as practically part of the Empire anyway sending tribute and with some Roman friendly native rulers.

What if Claudius and his advisers were a little more ambitious or daring, Germania Magna does not seem to be a practical goal in my opinion, sparsely populated and with negative memories of the Teutoburg Forest loss still relatively recent in 41. A longer campaign against the Moors in Mauretania (already started by Caligula) pushing further into North West Africa may have worked, perhaps a Dacian campaign?

Any thoughts?

A Dacian Campaign, controlling the entire capathian basin would be easily defendable, shorten the roman empires borders and generally would have been a good move

 

[Marc]

A Dacian Campaign, controlling the entire capathian basin would be easily defendable, shorten the roman empires borders and generally would have been a good move View attachment 554004

I've thought for some time that the conquest of Britain wasn't in the best long term interest of the Romans (Not sure if they really regarded it as an easy win, but rather a completion of God Julius's aspirations).
I'm not sure that Dacia at the time was especially attractive, outside of generously adding to a diminshing pool of slaves for the markets, were their famed mining operations going on at that time (supposedly a major factor for Trajan)? By the way, Claudius did formally annex Thrace, so Dacia may have some plausible play.
And, as many have pointed out. the Carpathian basin isn't really that defensible (those mountains are misleading for defensive purposes). They still would have needed the full strength of the lower Danube legions.

 

[lightningbearer90]

I take your point about annexing Thrace but where would you suggest for Claudius?

 

[Gabingston]

A Dacian Campaign, controlling the entire capathian basin would be easily defendable, shorten the roman empires borders and generally would have been a good move View attachment 554004

Hmm, maybe the Romans establish their frontiers along the Northern Carpathians and the Dniester.

 

[Iron_Lord]

Hmm, maybe the Romans establish their frontiers along the Northern Carpathians and the Dniester.

Yes, However do we know if this would have been an easy win? The whole conquest of the Carpathian basin?

 

[Cornelius]

Arabia Felix.

Conquering the southern part of Arabia (maybe with a piecemeal approach in several years) would grant the roman empire the control of a rich and prosperous region.

From Augusta Eudaimonia (that would be Aden) romans could control merchants routes to India and Africa. Control of red sea could be achieved through creation of fortified ports along the way, that could also double as trading post. Such a model of expansion, if successful could replicated elsewhere.

 

[lightningbearer90]

I still think that for Claudius and his advisors in 41 AD, Arabia was a bit too much of a wildcard. They needed a major credibility boost that only a military victory could give with the minimum of military risk. Perhaps a expedition to extend Roman control down the Nile?

What do you guys think serious options for Claudius would be? I still think Dacia is a serious option.

 

[StevenIronside]

He only truly has 4 options.

1. Britannia a conquest not even the great caesar could accomplish.

2. Dacia basically breading grounds for barbarians against the danube. And could prove a serious trouble spot in the near future.

3. Germania yes for the empire not much to gain but for claudius he could finish what Augustus started and if he auctually conquered the place would probably gain much more prestige than any other Emperor.

4. Parthia. Yes the big bad eastern dog. I would say his best chance for the empire to do so would have been with corbulo. However a early war started by Rome and conquest and destruction of the parthian empire would be probably the biggest thing Claudius could have done.

However Britannia was chosen for a simple reason. The easiest and quickest of those to pull off he needed a conquest then not 3 to 5 yesrs in the future. As well Britannia was the smallest gamble.

The most beneficial for the empire would have either been Dacia or Parthia due to the monetary gain. And one could have set up the rest easy enough.

 

[Cornelius]

He only truly has 4 options.

1. Britannia a conquest not even the great caesar could accomplish.

2. Dacia basically breading grounds for barbarians against the danube. And could prove a serious trouble spot in the near future.

3. Germania yes for the empire not much to gain but for claudius he could finish what Augustus started and if he auctually conquered the place would probably gain much more prestige than any other Emperor.

4. Parthia. Yes the big bad eastern dog. I would say his best chance for the empire to do so would have been with corbulo. However a early war started by Rome and conquest and destruction of the parthian empire would be probably the biggest thing Claudius could have done.

The most beneficial for the empire would have either been Dacia or Parthia due to the monetary gain. And one could have set up the rest easy enough.

Basically yes, but the OP asked for no Britain at all and an easy win.

Germania would be a useful conquest on the long run, but hard to keep. So Dacia, but without the prestige connected to Germany.

Parthia is by far the most prestigious and rewarding prize, but it would have been a long and hard war followed by a very difficult occupation.

Arabia Felix would probably difficult to reach, initially, but not so hard to take (Last famous words...) It would be quite the prize in itself (better than Britain, I think) and would be incredibly prestigiuos as conquest. The land of frankincense and spices that Alexander himself desired to take...

 

[lightningbearer90]

Basically yes, but the OP asked for no Britain at all and an easy win.

Germania would be a useful conquest on the long run, but hard to keep. So Dacia, but without the prestige connected to Germany.

Parthia is by far the most prestigious and rewarding prize, but it would have been a long and hard war followed by a very difficult occupation.

Arabia Felix would probably difficult to reach, initially, but not so hard to take (Last famous words...) It would be quite the prize in itself (better than Britain, I think) and would be incredibly prestigiuos as conquest. The land of frankincense and spices that Alexander himself desired to take...

Exactly, were there any "easy win" options for Claudius, aside (arguably) than Britannia? Augustus had already sent one failed expedition to Arabia Felix, so perhaps one failed precedent would rule it out for Claudius.

 

[StevenIronside]

Exactly, were there any "easy win" options for Claudius, aside (arguably) than Britannia? Augustus had already sent one failed expedition to Arabia Felix, so perhaps one failed precedent would rule it out for Claudius.

From what i read the expedition may have reached the general area they ment to however turned back due to Attrition i believe.

Perhaps a naval expedition with 2 legions could subdue the area making it a client state, i think probably Dacia would be the best. Claudius son Britannicus who was auctually initially Germanicus could become Daciacus.

This would be a handsome reward for the empire and probably the easiest of the 3

 

[SlyDessertFox]

To expand on what others have already said, Britain was really the perfect choice: It was strategically useful at the time-the diplomatic and trade relationships set up by Caesar had long since broken down; it was prestigious (finishing what Caesar started and what, supposedly, but not in reality, something Augustus wanted to do); it was fairly risk free and easy; and finally, and most importantly, as has been mentioned Caligula had laid much of the groundwork for preparing for the invasion, so it could happen quickly.

So all that said, what else satisfies all, or most of these critieria? The answer to that, in my view, is clearly Germany. It does not have to start out as a long campaign of conquest-can easily begin as a simple military expedition that can expand or contract as necessary. Therefore it's easy to define whatever criteria for success Claudius wants. It's prestigious, in that it continues on expeditions from Caesar, to Augustus, to Claudius's father Drusus, to the much beloved Germanicus. And, most importantly: The groundwork that Caligula had laid to prepare for the Britain invasion can also be used to quickly launch a Germany expedition, given they were using the same pool of forces, concentrated in the same area.

Galba was already doing some punative expeditions to keep the Rhine quiet in preparation for Caligula's British invasion, so operations were already under way.

 

[isabella]

To expand on what others have already said, Britain was really the perfect choice: It was strategically useful at the time-the diplomatic and trade relationships set up by Caesar had long since broken down; it was prestigious (finishing what Caesar started and what, supposedly, but not in reality, something Augustus wanted to do); it was fairly risk free and easy; and finally, and most importantly, as has been mentioned Caligula had laid much of the groundwork for preparing for the invasion, so it could happen quickly.

So all that said, what else satisfies all, or most of these critieria? The answer to that, in my view, is clearly Germany. It does not have to start out as a long campaign of conquest-can easily begin as a simple military expedition that can expand or contract as necessary. Therefore it's easy to define whatever criteria for success Claudius wants. It's prestigious, in that it continues on expeditions from Caesar, to Augustus, to Claudius's father Drusus, to the much beloved Germanicus. And, most importantly: The groundwork that Caligula had laid to prepare for the Britain invasion can also be used to quickly launch a Germany expedition, given they were using the same pool of forces, concentrated in the same area.

Galba was already doing some punative expeditions to keep the Rhine quiet in preparation for Caligula's British invasion, so operations were already under way.

Then would be Germany and Claudius’ son would be another Germanicus like his uncle...

 

[StevenIronside]

Then would be Germany and Claudius’ son would be another Germanicus like his uncle...

Well his name at birth was already Tiberius Claudius Germanicus. It only changed once the invasion happened.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Well his name at birth was already Tiberius Claudius Germanicus. It only changed once the invasion happened.

Someone needs to give him a nickname though, otherwise we won't know what what to call him. Can't call him emperor Tiberius, Claudius, or Germanicus.

 

[Marc]

I tend to disagree about Britain being "easy". It did take them 4 full legions and 40 years to nominally control the land. Besides the 3 legions formally garrisoning, the Romans needed the largest number of auxiliaries for any province. Clearly it was, and continued to be a major military commitment.
Claudius may not have been able to foresee all that, but I can't imagine that no one warned that it could be could be a serious handful.
Also, from an economic point of view, while the data of course is thin, I think it would fail any positive cost/benefit analysis. The British Isles were one of the few regions where the Romans had a nicely favorable balance of trade - raw materials in exchange for their finished goods. And the expense of keeping a rather large security force (estimates are as high as 10% of the total population), suggest that Britain was a fiscal drain on the Empire.

However, there is another motivation: that whole druid fetish that the Romans had. I know, an arguable subject on many levels. But I can't help but feel that for whatever reasons, the Romans had what could be described as an Israeli attitude toward Nazis when it came to the druids.

 

[piratedude]

However, there is another motivation: that whole druid fetish that the Romans had. I know, an arguable subject on many levels. But I can't help but feel that for whatever reasons, the Romans had what could be described as an Israeli attitude toward Nazis when it came to the druids.

You're not entirely wrong. The I've heard it said it took Caesar conquest of gaul to excise the boogeyman that the celts were to the collective Roman psyche, and Britain can be seen as an extension of that.


The druidic system (to the extent that you can call it that) also wasn't something the romans could easily absorb and co-opt to their own purposes, so they posed a threat to roman rule

 

[isabella]

Well his name at birth was already Tiberius Claudius Germanicus. It only changed once the invasion happened.

Oh, well, then he will keep his birth name without adding another cognomen

Someone needs to give him a nickname though, otherwise we won't know what what to call him. Can't call him emperor Tiberius, Claudius, or Germanicus.

Well he can be Emperor Germanicus or Germanicus the Younger....