Churchill proposed "Franco-British Union"

kernals12

Banned
That would've lasted for about 5 minutes after the war ended. I don't think French voters would've been too keen on being ruled by London. And IOTL it took Britain 20 years to join the EEC and now they've voted to leave it's successor, the EU. I'm reminded of the 1958 merger of Syria and Egypt into the United Arab Republic, which lasted just 3 years before falling apart.
 
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Devvy

Donor
The midwar proposal was just that; a unification to keep France fighting. I don't think that instance goes far beyond the war.

However....

I think it serves as a good starting point for a post-war constitutional conference, especially with the Soviets not exactly far from being able to strike France. As I posited in my short story a few weeks back, I could see the UK, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg uniting as a federation, and being joined begrudgingly by Ireland (or else it's exports to the UK, vital economically, will be completely destroyed and replaced by France/Benelux imports to the UK).

"Federation" competences of:
International Relations (bar colonial/dominion relations)
Military (seconded to national governments during peace time and with regards to purely colonial issues - Algeria will need to be addressed)
Currency (maybe a firm peg between currencies or replaced by a single currency later)
Customs Union (most contentious due to colonies, but probably possible with imports allowed from colonies to a certain extent)
Space
Air transport

Such a federation is inevitably going to gather more powers as it goes.

Such a system is largely the only way the UK and France are going to be able to economically compete with the USA. Either swallow it, and work together, or don't and stay divided and largely at the mercy of the US. The making or breaking of such a union will depend on politician's answer to that question.
 
... and being joined begrudgingly by Ireland...
IIRC when Britain applied to join the EEC the first time around Denmark, Norway, and Ireland also applied to due to their strong economic ties to the UK. If Britain is a founder member it likely also brings them in as well I'd expect.
 
What would have happened in Indo China? Would Japan have been in a position to use a Franco British Indo China as a stepping off point for Malaya and the DEI?
 

kernals12

Banned
De Gaulle was a fiercely patriotic person, this was the guy who made France a nuclear state and swapped France's US dollar holdings for gold (he viewed the dollar reserve currency system as America's exorbitant privilege, it cost just a few cents to print a $100 bill but foreigners had to provide $100 worth of goods and services to obtain one). I think he'd work to break it off this union once Paris was liberated.
 
De Gaulle was a fiercely patriotic person, this was the guy who made France a nuclear state and swapped France's US dollar holdings for gold (he viewed the dollar reserve currency system as America's exorbitant privilege, it cost just a few cents to print a $100 bill but foreigners had to provide $100 worth of goods and services to obtain one). I think he'd work to break it off this union once Paris was liberated.

Didn't he also vote against letting Great Britain into the EU? Twice I believe...
 
De Gaulle was a fiercely patriotic person, this was the guy who made France a nuclear state and swapped France's US dollar holdings for gold (he viewed the dollar reserve currency system as America's exorbitant privilege, it cost just a few cents to print a $100 bill but foreigners had to provide $100 worth of goods and services to obtain one). I think he'd work to break it off this union once Paris was liberated.
If France keeps fighting, does De Gaulle rise to leadership or otherwise come to prominence?
 
If France keeps fighting, does De Gaulle rise to leadership or otherwise come to prominence?
Probably not as IIRC he was only appointed as a junior minister during the middle of the fall of France in 1940. Assuming that the Union went through with Reynaud and Lebrun continuing to maintain their positions, or equivalent ones, with a France that fights on it doesn't leave a vacuum for de Gaulle to move into. He might be able to move up to more senior position like Minister of War and National Defence which would help boost his profile and reputation but nothing like our timeline.
 

Devvy

Donor
A good starting point is the Soviets taking Italy and all of Germany.

They don't really need to take it all; as the Germans have aptly demonstrated in WW2, you can somewhat easily drive across West Germany straight in to France. West Germany by itself is no defence; that's the whole reason West Germany got admitted to NATO and allowed to remilitarise - everyone knew that they needed West German soldiers to provide some level of roadblock, to allow them time to be able to fire a nuclear missile and therefore render mutual destruction as a plausible deterrent.

In this kind of TL, I can't see NATO being a thing, as a Franco-British unified military will be able to justify it's own defence without leaning on the Americans - and for national pride reasons, they won't want to lean on the USA. If they do, they admit the union between them is kinda pointless; the point of the union is to provide effective and efficient defence (amongst other things).

De Gaulle was a fiercely patriotic person, this was the guy who made France a nuclear state and swapped France's US dollar holdings for gold (he viewed the dollar reserve currency system as America's exorbitant privilege, it cost just a few cents to print a $100 bill but foreigners had to provide $100 worth of goods and services to obtain one). I think he'd work to break it off this union once Paris was liberated.

Didn't he also vote against letting Great Britain into the EU? Twice I believe...

Probably not as IIRC he was only appointed as a junior minister during the middle of the fall of France in 1940. Assuming that the Union went through with Reynaud and Lebrun continuing to maintain their positions, or equivalent ones, with a France that fights on it doesn't leave a vacuum for de Gaulle to move into. He might be able to move up to more senior position like Minister of War and National Defence which would help boost his profile and reputation but nothing like our timeline.

Firstly, de Gaulle barred the UK from entry to the EEC twice - but this was predominately as the UK was viewed (and still is) as the little puppet of the US. CDG feared the UK joining the EEC was a step to allowing stealth control of Europe by the USA. If France-Britain (et al) are a union, then this fear isn't a thing - the UK is quite clearly and demonstratably the closest ally of France, whilst being a friend of the USA too.

Plus, as Simon says, de Gaulle only got to where he was post war by being the leader of the Free French. The whole notion of Churchill's UK-FR union was that legally France and the UK merged; ergo there is no France surrender, and therefore no Free French. CDG would probably end up in Government, maybe in Cabinet as a Defence Minister or something, but he's not going to be anywhere near as powerful as OTL.

IIRC when Britain applied to join the EEC the first time around Denmark, Norway, and Ireland also applied to due to their strong economic ties to the UK. If Britain is a founder member it likely also brings them in as well I'd expect.

Denmark and Norway I can't quite decide about. Churchill's Union was explicitly about military and foreign relations, and then economic. Can the Franco British Union (even with the 4 I've posited) guarantee the defence of Norway and Denmark? To be honest, I don't think so. Also, any visibly lasting Franco-British Union I can see spurring a United Scandinavia, with that state taking on armed neutrality, but closely linked economically with the UK-FR Union.
 
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Denmark and Norway I can't quite decide about. Churchill's Union was explicitly about military and foreign relations, and then economic. Can the Franco British Union (even with the 4 I've posited) guarantee the defence of Norway and Denmark? To be honest, I don't think so. Also, any visibly lasting Franco-British Union I can see spurring a United Scandinavia, with that state taking on armed neutrality, but closely linked economically with the UK-FR Union.
Apologies, I was getting time periods mentally confused - your 'replaced by France/Benelux imports to the UK' line had me thinking post-war. They certainly couldn't guarantee Denmark and unless they had slightly better luck, the aerial reconnaissance sights the Kriegsmarine group heading eastwards rather than westwards whilst sailing in circles waiting for the scheduled start of the operation, Norway either. There'd be no reasonable reason for their government to enter into any Union type agreement over our timelines Government in Exile.
 

Devvy

Donor
Apologies, I was getting time periods mentally confused - your 'replaced by France/Benelux imports to the UK' line had me thinking post-war. They certainly couldn't guarantee Denmark and unless they had slightly better luck, the aerial reconnaissance sights the Kriegsmarine group heading eastwards rather than westwards whilst sailing in circles waiting for the scheduled start of the operation, Norway either. There'd be no reasonable reason for their government to enter into any Union type agreement over our timelines Government in Exile.

Sorry, I think I've confused you too! I did mean post-war. Going on the basis, that the Union eventually liberates the Nordics, I can't see "The Union" then being able to defend Denmark and Norway from any Soviet aggression. Sweden is essential to any effective Norwegian defence, and Denmark is likewise susceptible without stationing a large number of troops completely out of proportion to the country size.

Everyone will know that whatever "Union" politicians might say about guaranteeing Denmark and Norway, when it comes to the crunch the military will be used first and foremost to defend France (and by extension the UK).
 
They don't really need to take it all; as the Germans have aptly demonstrated in WW2, you can somewhat easily drive across West Germany straight in to France. West Germany by itself is no defence; that's the whole reason West Germany got admitted to NATO and allowed to remilitarise - everyone knew that they needed West German soldiers to provide some level of roadblock, to allow them time to be able to fire a nuclear missile and therefore render mutual destruction as a plausible deterrent.

In this kind of TL, I can't see NATO being a thing, as a Franco-British unified military will be able to justify it's own defence without leaning on the Americans - and for national pride reasons, they won't want to lean on the USA. If they do, they admit the union between them is kinda pointless; the point of the union is to provide effective and efficient defence (amongst other things).







Firstly, de Gaulle barred the UK from entry to the EEC twice - but this was predominately as the UK was viewed (and still is) as the little puppet of the US. CDG feared the UK joining the EEC was a step to allowing stealth control of Europe by the USA. If France-Britain (et al) are a union, then this fear isn't a thing - the UK is quite clearly and demonstratably the closest ally of France, whilst being a friend of the USA too.
I wasn't suggesting that a Franco-British Union would form because France was militarily threatened by the Soviets, I was saying a FBU would form because there's no West Germany or Italy for France to form the EEC with.
 
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