Churchill as Fascist

HueyLong

Banned
Personally, I think someone other than Mosley would be better for the British Fascist movements of the 20s and 30s.

My favorite Fascist Briton is Winston Churchill. He crossed the floor many times, he was on the side of the Fascists during the abdication crisis, he supported the goals of the Imperial Fascist League, damned the anti-colonial tendencies of the Tories, opposed the return to the gold standard (privately, after said disaster), supported martial measures against socialists and colonials, and he praised "modernization" ideas for English Government.

Such as a written government, a return to the property franchise, a corporatist House of Lords with proportional city-by-city representation, and other seemingly Fascist ideas.

Is it conceivable for him to join some Fascist popular front? Maybe he isn't made Chancellor of the Exchequer and breaks earlier with the Tories on the Gold Standard?
 
Well if I am not mistaken, I recall seeing a TV show on the History Channel once that said early on Hitler dreamed of a grand Anglo-German alliance of super men against the sub-human Jewish-Slav-Commie Bastards(c). When the Brits didn't really feel the same love back he changed his plans. In this timeline he could get his wish.
 
Mosley, initially was one of the most gifted and talented politicians of his day who got too far, too young and then got frustrated at how slow things took to change.

He was seen first as the future Tory leader, being bright and charismatic, then when he crossed the floor after having been attracted to the idea of socialism, he was equally seen as a future Labour leader.

After being given essentially the post of minister without portfolio(Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster)in the Ramsay Macdonald government, other ministers objected to him arguing for mass works to end unemployment and interfering on other departments briefs.

Due to this and the frustration of the post, he resigned from government and the Labour Party and established the New Party, which eventually morphed into the BUF.

The story of his political life is a tragedy of its own making. If he had been given a proper department to concentrate on by Macdonald, I doubt he would have resigned and furthermore would have gone onto high political office. As it was he visited Italy and then when Hitler came to power Germany and slowly got attracted by Facsist/Totalitarian politics(I think partly because they took notice of him). It was totally avoidable.

Churchill on the other hand, I doubt would have done much better.
 
It's not just a matter of 'crossing the floor', in this situation. In my opinion for any AH, there has to be some plausibility about it.
To imagine that Churchill could have gone 'fascist' is in ASB land!!

The man was someone of principle and ideals. He saw that Hitler's Nazi Germany was a threat, before many - not just to the 'balance of power' in Europe but to a civilised world. Many feared a Napoleon like figure, but in a sense France can look back with pride on his legacy e.g. law. No, Hitler was a 20th century Genghis Khan!
 
I don't really think he would have done, but if he had he would have failed. Churchill only became leader of the Conservatives due to there being no credible opposition and due to him being the prophetic figure once appeasement was discredited. Pre-1939, he was seen as an opportunist and a has-been. Without the Tory party to work within, he'd never have made any impact at governmental level. He might have done slightly better than MOsley, but he probably wouldn't have been able to overtake even the Liberals.
 

HueyLong

Banned
It's not just a matter of 'crossing the floor', in this situation. In my opinion for any AH, there has to be some plausibility about it.
To imagine that Churchill could have gone 'fascist' is in ASB land!!

The man was someone of principle and ideals. He saw that Hitler's Nazi Germany was a threat, before many - not just to the 'balance of power' in Europe but to a civilised world. Many feared a Napoleon like figure, but in a sense France can look back with pride on his legacy e.g. law. No, Hitler was a 20th century Genghis Khan!

This is a man who praised Mussolini and Hitler- until he saw them turn against his own nation. He was a man of high ideals, but many of these could be found in common with British Fascists. As said, he did support a number of the Imperial Fascist League's programs, mainly in regards to Indian home-rule.

Note that as a Fascist, he does not have to join Hitler. Churchill as a Fascist would probably lean more towards Mussolini and the home-grown British issues (such as Imperial preference, the colonies, the balance of power on the continent, the Depression, etc....)

Ahem, lets look at some Churchill quotes.

"The state will break this strike or this strike will break the state."

"I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."

"If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable
[as Hitler] to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas.
I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."

Oh, and then there is this gem:

"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews."

This is a man, who in the manner of many Fascists in Italy, jumped from side to side in politics. This is a man who spurned public opinion and prided himself on being a maverick.

It was thought, by contemporaries, that if Edward had refused to abdicate, Churchill would have led the government after the old one resigned, and that he would have ruled with New Labour and the Edward wing of the Tories.

What Churchill did not support about the Fascists were the things that eroded them as a political force. He did not support their vigilantism, their disrespect for law. If he leads a British Fascism, it will be one purged of blackshirts.

And my POD is not him simply crossing the floor. It would take an earlier POD to make there a floor to cross. The Fascists were minor during his second outcast period. Oh yes, and his work Amid These Storms includes a number of Fascist ideas. The property franchise, a corporatist government, a strengthened military etc....

Some more quotes:

"The greatest lawgiver among men"
- On Mussolini, 1933

"In war it does not matter who is right but who is left."
 
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Personally, I think someone other than Mosley would be better for the British Fascist movements of the 20s and 30s.

Well you see usually good for british fascist is usually bad for Britain in particular and for the world in general
 

HueyLong

Banned
Who ever said I would actually like a world where Churchill led a successful Fascist movement?

Also note that, if Hitler pushes war, Churchill as Fascist would be just as likely to oppose appeasement as he was as Tory. So, Britain could still join the war on schedule as in OTL, so it may not be completely horrible for the world.
 
What would be even more interesting is if Churchill went fascist (especially hardline) and FDR went Socialist (or again especially hardline). We could turn a wonderful friendship into a beastly rivalry.
 
"I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."
[/I]

Perhaps, rather than simply demonstrating how the prejudices of the 30s clash with our own you might demonstrate how Churchill was actually fascist.

Did he ever believe in a one party state?

Did he ever believe in political youth movements?

What was his attitude towards corporatism?

What was his overall attitude towards Jews?

What was his attitude towards individual liberty? culture and the arts?

What was his attitude towards democracy?

Why, to the end of his life did he say 'I have always been a liberal'?

Away with this silliness and bring me cake and fine wines instead
 

HueyLong

Banned
Perhaps, rather than simply demonstrating how the prejudices of the 30s clash with our own you might demonstrate how Churchill was actually fascist.

Did he ever believe in a one party state?

Did he ever believe in political youth movements?

What was his attitude towards corporatism?

What was his overall attitude towards Jews?

What was his attitude towards individual liberty? culture and the arts?

What was his attitude towards democracy?

Why, to the end of his life did he say 'I have always been a liberal'?

Away with this silliness and bring me cake and fine wines instead

Even for his time, Churchill's racial ideas were becoming outdated. In the Conservative Party he was one of the most vociferous racists. The Tories had already taken a party line of Indian home-rule and had elected some of the first Indian MPs to Parliament. It was not simply the prejudice of the 30s.

One party state, note that even Mussolini never actually supported a one party state. He held back his party to ensure that the state was the dominant partner. Hitler's the one who let the party dominate over the traditional government. Note that Churchill throughout his life hated political bargaining and large, powerful factions. His ideas for restraining the electorate (a return to the propertied franchise) and a corporatist Upper House were supposed to restrict the opinions represented in government to those that would be in the national interest (especially in removing socialist Labour sentiment). Something along the lines of Taisho Democracy, allowing some political debate within the overall national power structure.

Political Youth movements? No, but he supported the army and other civic organizations that could easily been turned to political means. Note that the BUF never had a political youth wing and that Italy's Fascists only gained a functional, significant one after coming to power. And there is the example of youth participation in WW2, but that can be discounted.

As I've already pointed out, he proposed a reorganization of the British state along vaguely corporatist lines. Oh, and in OTL, the Fascists, especially in Britain were never strict ideologues. He wouldn't have to argue for a full corporatist state to be a Fascist.

Churchill's prejudices to the Jews were, as they were towards the Indians, unorthodox for even his time. At one point, he supported an early British Fascisti attempt to revive one of the old statutes of Jewry. (One that would ban them from moneylending and landholding)

Individual liberty? Note that Mussolini's Fascists promised more liberty when forming and coming to power. Their early rhetoric is oddly liberal. Now, as for Churchill himself, he believed in liberty for the Anglo-Saxon people above, pretty much all else. Suggesting that socialists should be hanged, that striking coal miners should be shot and that any and all colonial attempts at independence should be stomped flat are hardly arguments for Churchill being some great defender of individual liberty.

As for culture and the arts, he was a writer and artist himself, and supported it to a degree. But I fail to see what this has to do with Fascism. After all, artist circles all throughout Europe were lovers of Mussolini (not so much Hitler) and Franco. Fascism itself stemmed in part from Futurism, an artistic movement, and the Italian state did support the arts heavily (if with a neo-classical bent)

Democracy? I've already discussed this in the one party state. As said, he did argue for restricting the franchise, which was a hugely reactionary move.

"I have always been a liberal." I believe this should be large-L Liberal, referring to the party and simply showing Churchill's eternal maverick stance. Sorry, but its pretty hard to say he was a liberal in any sense.

opposed the return to the gold standard (QUOTE]

In a thread of utter BS this must be the most hilarious line of all, how, exactly does this make one a fascist?

It is one of the keymark ideas of the Fascist movement in Britain. They were the only political faction actually opposed to the standard (although I believe that Labour switched on the issue later in the period, they were economically orthodox until after WW2)

I think you are all backwards projecting what you know about Churchill as a great war-time leader and as an anti-Nazi to discredit this idea.

You're seeing him as the great wartime hero and defender of democracy, instead of the has-been reactionary and opportunistic maverick he was at the time. You're seeing his later opposition to fascism as aligned with Nazi Germany and against his country. You're seeing him as one the greats of the era.

Why did he come to power? It wasn't his high-minded ideals or anything else. It was the simple fact that he was one of the only ones clamoring for war while everyone else was clamoring for peace. Which hardly excludes him from being a Fascist. Isn't an energetic foreign policy one of the key tenets of Fascism? Colonial policies or at least a need for them would be unique to British Fascism.

Now, if in OTL, Mussolini had remained a socialist and someone came here suggesting he replace, say, D'Annunzio or Balbo as leader of Italian Fascism, we would be hearing all about Il Duce's great commitment to the Italian people, his great opposition to eventual Fascist overlordship, his actions post-WW2 in liberated post-Fascist Italy etc..... The same could be said if, in OTL, Mosley kept his power and trust in government, and someone suggested him as leader of British Fascism. Why, how could that man make common cause with Arnold Leese or Lord Haw-Haw? He was a man of high ideals and commitment to the Labour cause, and always hated the boorish Duce and the insidious Hitler.
 
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