Charles VII of France dies in 1422

VVD0D95

Banned
Inspired by a thread by @StevenIronside, Henry V died on 31st August 1422 otl, so, let's say that a few days later say on the 3rd September 1422, Charles VII, at the time Dauphin of France is out riding when he suffers an accident and dies. What consequences would this have for the Hundred Years War, and the English and French efforts? Charles' son Louis wasn't born until July of 1423, which suggests he was conceived in October of 1422. Now with his father dead before that month, he won't be conceived. So, with all of Charles VI's sons dead, the line of succession would pass to Charles, Duke of Orleans who since the battle of Agincourt in 1415 has been an English prisoner. So, what happens with the French war effort?
 
Inspired by a thread by @StevenIronside, Henry V died on 31st August 1422 otl, so, let's say that a few days later say on the 3rd September 1422, Charles VII, at the time Dauphin of France is out riding when he suffers an accident and dies. What consequences would this have for the Hundred Years War, and the English and French efforts? Charles' son Louis wasn't born until July of 1423, which suggests he was conceived in October of 1422. Now with his father dead before that month, he won't be conceived. So, with all of Charles VI's sons dead, the line of succession would pass to Charles, Duke of Orleans who since the battle of Agincourt in 1415 has been an English prisoner. So, what happens with the French war effort?
I believe such a situation would see the Armagnac party crippled. Under those conditions, the Bourguignon party triumphant would seek to oust the English.
We could see Philippe III de Bourgogne take the leadership of France - maybe even claim the French throne based on the wife of Philippe II de Bourgogne being the agnatic-cognatic descendant of Philippe V de France. Which is still an infinitely superior claim to the English one.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I believe such a situation would see the Armagnac party crippled. Under those conditions, the Bourguignon party triumphant would seek to oust the English.
We could see Philippe III de Bourgogne take the leadership of France - maybe even claim the French throne based on the wife of Philippe II de Bourgogne being the agnatic-cognatic descendant of Philippe V de France. Which is still an infinitely superior claim to the English one.

Hmm interesting, though would Phil III try to claim the throne and risk further dividing the country? I can definitely see him turning against the English with Charles VII dead, and trying to kick the English out of the Kingdom. I imagine he'd probably be quite successful as well.
 
Seems likely doesn't it. Unless she somehow has a vision about helping Burgundy?
Her screed of "Bouter les Anglais hors de France" would still be applicable, but I do not think that the Burgundians would be desperate enough for her to gain any access to the Duke, never mind leading troops.
Maybe she leads a peasant revolt against the English.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Her screed of "Bouter les Anglais hors de France" would still be applicable, but I do not think that the Burgundians would be desperate enough for her to gain any access to the Duke, never mind leading troops.
Maybe she leads a peasant revolt against the English.

Now that would be interesting. Of course, seeing how Bedford handles Burgundy when their mutual enemy isn't around will be fascinating to see as well. Orleans won't be released anytime soon and I imagine that he will be heavily guarded now he's the titular King of France-back in England that is- I can see Burgundy looking to get rid of Angolueme though.
 
Inspired by a thread by @StevenIronside, Henry V died on 31st August 1422 otl, so, let's say that a few days later say on the 3rd September 1422, Charles VII, at the time Dauphin of France is out riding when he suffers an accident and dies. What consequences would this have for the Hundred Years War, and the English and French efforts? Charles' son Louis wasn't born until July of 1423, which suggests he was conceived in October of 1422. Now with his father dead before that month, he won't be conceived. So, with all of Charles VI's sons dead, the line of succession would pass to Charles, Duke of Orleans who since the battle of Agincourt in 1415 has been an English prisoner. So, what happens with the French war effort?
The House of Valois-Orleáns is basically neutralized, as the remaining sons, Charles and Jean of the only other brother of Charles VI, Louis of Orleáns, are in English captivity by 1415. One would have to trace descent all the way back to the second son of Jean II, Louis I, Duke of Anjou, which in turn goes down to his son Louis II, who died in 1417, and was succeeded by his oldest son Louis III, who would now be the next dynast if the Orleáns line is unavailable. Most importantly, Louis III's mother is Yolande of Aragon, and if she fought hard for her OTL son-in-law Charles VII, she would especially go hard for her own son. Louis of Anjou would be in Naples trying to secure that succession for himself, but this new situation probably sees him summoned to his mother's side immediately.

Gaining allies would be the first order of business for Louis and Yolande and the at this point 19 year old Louis is undoubtedly getting married. What if Yolande was able to bring Philip the Good to the negotiating table and manages to convince him to switch sides? Philip may not have daughters, but he does have unmarried sisters in 1422, the widowed, but older Margaret, and both the younger Anne and Agnes, of whom Anne was married to John of Bedford in OTL to secure the Anglo-Burgundian alliance. It would be contentious, but the Orleáns brothers have scant support while they're in captivity and likely have to see themselves pragmatically skipped in the succession from behind bars.

The English could struggle with an Anjou-Burgundy alliance if they can't convince more French nobles to back their infant king's claim, many of whom may decide to back Louis of Anjou. Catherine of Valois is in England. Dwindling support may see the English prudently decide to come to the negotiating table and hammer out a peace agreement vacating the infant's claim, recognizing Louis of Anjou as Louis XI of the House of Anjou and perhaps making a betrothal between Henry and a future daughter of Louis and Anne/Agnes, but at the same time securing English possessions like Calais and Gascony.

Now having pulled out of France, the English can focus fully on the regency government and may possibly even avert the Wars of the Roses, which were in part fueled by English defeat in France over the years. TTL Louis XI could decide to bequeath his own claims to Naples and Sicily to his brother René or continue to pursue them himself, once he's finished consolidating his power in France. Philip makes a different 2nd marriage than he did in OTL and might butterfly away Charles the Bold.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
The House of Valois-Orleáns is basically neutralized, as the remaining sons, Charles and Jean of the only other brother of Charles VI, Louis of Orleáns, are in English captivity by 1415. One would have to trace descent all the way back to the second son of Jean II, Louis I, Duke of Anjou, which in turn goes down to his son Louis II, who died in 1417, and was succeeded by his oldest son Louis III, who would now be the next dynast if the Orleáns line is unavailable. Most importantly, Louis III's mother is Yolande of Aragon, and if she fought hard for her OTL son-in-law Charles VII, she would especially go hard for her own son. Louis of Anjou would be in Naples trying to secure that succession for himself, but this new situation probably sees him summoned to his mother's side immediately.

Gaining allies would be the first order of business for Louis and Yolande and the at this point 19 year old Louis is undoubtedly getting married. What if Yolande was able to bring Philip the Good to the negotiating table and manages to convince him to switch sides? Philip may not have daughters, but he does have unmarried sisters in 1422, the widowed, but older Margaret, and both the younger Anne and Agnes, of whom Anne was married to John of Bedford in OTL to secure the Anglo-Burgundian alliance. It would be contentious, but the Orleáns brothers have scant support while they're in captivity and likely have to see themselves pragmatically skipped in the succession from behind bars.

The English could struggle with an Anjou-Burgundy alliance if they can't convince more French nobles to back their infant king's claim, many of whom may decide to back Louis of Anjou. Catherine of Valois is in England. Dwindling support may see the English prudently decide to come to the negotiating table and hammer out a peace agreement vacating the infant's claim, recognizing Louis of Anjou as Louis XI of the House of Anjou and perhaps making a betrothal between Henry and a future daughter of Louis and Anne/Agnes, but at the same time securing English possessions like Calais and Gascony.

Now having pulled out of France, the English can focus fully on the regency government and may possibly even avert the Wars of the Roses, which were in part fueled by English defeat in France over the years. TTL Louis XI could decide to bequeath his own claims to Naples and Sicily to his brother René or continue to pursue them himself, once he's finished consolidating his power in France. Philip makes a different 2nd marriage than he did in OTL and might butterfly away Charles the Bold.

Oh, I really like this scenario, I really like it a lot!

I do have a question though, would the Orleans ever be released from captivity in this scenario, or if Louis of Anjou succeeds in consolidating support to bring the English to the table, would the Orleans candidates end up being knocked off quietly?
 
That would be fascinating to see though would Orleans be viewed as a puppet
He probably would. Being released when Louis III/XI is about to win the throne might seem suspect to the French - especially to Anjou's supporters. They're likely to make Orléans appear as a puppet claimant to avoid the possible defection of those who would have supported him if he hadn't been imprisoned at the time of the Dauphin's death.
I can even see Anjou deciding to keep his cousin imprisoned so he won't try and claim the throne.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
He probably would. Being released when Louis III/XI is about to win the throne might seem suspect to the French - especially to Anjou's supporters. They're likely to make Orléans appear as a puppet claimant to avoid the possible defection of those who would have supported him if he hadn't been imprisoned at the time of the Dauphin's death.
I can even see Anjou deciding to keep his cousin imprisoned so he won't try and claim the throne.

Hmm agreed, I do think it would be fascinating if the English decide to make peace with Anjou and company, and if things start falling flat with relations there, they release Orleans and his brother and try and get them to make trouble.
 
Unfortunately for him Anjou has no valid claim on the French crown and would be always an usurper while Charles and Jean of Orleans still live. If laws are immutable Charles is the rightful king and his brother the legitimate heir, if they are not then Henry V of England is the legitimate King of France now...
The best who the Anjous can do here is claiming the regency in name of the captive King Charles...
@DracoLazarus: at the death of Charles IV with the laws used until that moment (excluding females from inheritance but not yet their sons) Edward III of England had the best claim available by miles, if you include again female inheritance then the best claim belong to Navarre not Burgundy.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Unfortunately for him Anjou has no valid claim on the French crown and would be always an usurper while Charles and Jean of Orleans still live. If laws are immutable Charles is the rightful king and his brother the legitimate heir, if they are not then Henry V of England is the legitimate King of France now...
The best who the Anjous can do here is claiming the regency in name of the captive King Charles...
@DracoLazarus: at the death of Charles IV with the laws used until that moment (excluding females from inheritance but not yet their sons) Edward III of England had the best claim available by miles, if you include again female inheritance then the best claim belong to Navarre not Burgundy.

So, with an infant Henry VI on the throne in England, and with Orleans as prisoners in England as well, Anjou's probably summoned back from Naples as soon as he can leave, and perhaps takes up the fight in the name of King Charles VIII?
 
So, with an infant Henry VI on the throne in England, and with Orleans as prisoners in England as well, Anjou's probably summoned back from Naples as soon as he can leave, and perhaps takes up the fight in the name of King Charles VIII?
Yes, I think it's likely.

Unfortunately for him Anjou has no valid claim on the French crown and would be always an usurper while Charles and Jean of Orleans still live. If laws are immutable Charles is the rightful king and his brother the legitimate heir, if they are not then Henry V of England is the legitimate King of France now...
The best who the Anjous can do here is claiming the regency in name of the captive King Charles...
@DracoLazarus: at the death of Charles IV with the laws used until that moment (excluding females from inheritance but not yet their sons) Edward III of England had the best claim available by miles, if you include again female inheritance then the best claim belong to Navarre not Burgundy.
I'm not sure Henry would be accepted by the French nobility. First because they didn't want a foreigner to inherit the throne and also because a king who ruled both England and France would've been too powerful for their liking.
Also, if women could pass down inheritance, then Navarre and Burgundy had a superior claim to England - Louis X's, Philip V's and Charles IV's daughters came before Isabella in the line of succession - well, Joan II of Navarre's descendants could be excluded if there's doubt about her legitimacy.

I think they're more likely to have Anjou rule as a regent while the Orléans brothers are held captive - like what happened OTL when John II was taken prisonner and his son became regent. Then since Charles and Jean won't marry, Anjou will become the rightful king under strict Salic Law.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Yes, I think it's likely.


I'm not sure Henry would be accepted by the French nobility. First because they didn't want a foreigner to inherit the throne and also because a king who ruled both England and France would've been too powerful for their liking.
Also, if women could pass down inheritance, then Navarre and Burgundy had a superior claim to England - Louis X's, Philip V's and Charles IV's daughters came before Isabella in the line of succession - well, Joan II of Navarre's descendants could be excluded if there's doubt about her legitimacy.

I think they're more likely to have Anjou rule as a regent while the Orléans brothers are held captive - like what happened OTL when John II was taken prisonner and his son became regent. Then since Charles and Jean won't marry, Anjou will become the rightful king under strict Salic Law.

Tbf, Charles and Jean did live an awfully long time otl, is there any guarantee that they won't eventually be released?
 
True, the big problem is that if Louis of Anjou comes to like being king (and he sure will:winkytongue:) he won't want his cousins to be released.
So it'll be in England's interest to have them released and hope they and Louis are going to fight over the French throne.
Or Anjou will try to find a way to get rid of them discreetly - and blame the English for it to avoid suspicion and increase anti-English feelings in France.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
True, the big problem is that if Louis of Anjou comes to like being king (and he sure will:winkytongue:) he won't want his cousins to be released.
So it'll be in England's interest to have them released and hope they and Louis are going to fight over the French throne.
Or Anjou will try to find a way to get rid of them discreetly - and blame the English for it to avoid suspicion and increase anti-English feelings in France.
Haha this is very true. I could almost see Louis arranging a marriage for himself with an English bride to simply keep the Orleans brothers locked up
 
Yes, I think it's likely.


I'm not sure Henry would be accepted by the French nobility. First because they didn't want a foreigner to inherit the throne and also because a king who ruled both England and France would've been too powerful for their liking.
Also, if women could pass down inheritance, then Navarre and Burgundy had a superior claim to England - Louis X's, Philip V's and Charles IV's daughters came before Isabella in the line of succession - well, Joan II of Navarre's descendants could be excluded if there's doubt about her legitimacy.

I think they're more likely to have Anjou rule as a regent while the Orléans brothers are held captive - like what happened OTL when John II was taken prisonner and his son became regent. Then since Charles and Jean won't marry, Anjou will become the rightful king under strict Salic Law.
Well that is not true... If Philip V had lived until the birth of his grandson and longer than his brothers then his Joan's son would have a higher claim than Edward as a grandson is closer relative than a nephew but under any other scenario Edward as an higher claim because both Louis and Philip's line are collateral at the death of Charles IV so either you count from the King just deceased (who has no male descendants) and go to his closest male relative from a female line (who is the son of his sister not the sons of either niece one of which is not yet born by the way) or you go back in the mainline to the first King who has male descents in female line still alive (so Philip IV and again his grandson Edward is closer relative than a great grandson). Any kind of male preference's succession in France was impossible starting from the moment in which Philip V denied the crown of France to his niece excluding direct female succession. Joan II of Navarre was always recognized as legitimate daughter of her father and princess of France or she would never be able to inheriting Navarre and if she was excluded from the crown for her legitimacy and not her sex then her cousin Joan of Burgundy would be the heiress of Philip V
 
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