Challenge-Mess Up West Germany after 1945

[King Thomas]

Is it possible that West Germany in 1945 could have become like Iraq is now, full of people shooting at the occupation forces and each other? 20+ deaths per day, large scale crime and terroism. If so, how could such a thing happen?

 

[Max Sinister]

Nazis deciding to fight back against the Allies. Soviet Union funding Communist partisans. Morgenthau plan is implemented (or at least tried). That'd be a good start, but I don't think you can make it as bad as Iraq.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Morgenthau would do it and worse. Basically, you have to imprison the whole country and enforce the starvation of millions for years. You'd have probably whole divisions of the occupying forces defecting to help the Germans, with posters of starving children used to recruit resistance fighters worldwide

 

[Kabraloth]

Actually, the Morgenthau Plan was at least partially and temporarily implemented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan#Implementation

If order JCS 1067 is not repealed over time, France indeed annexes the Ruhr and Saar regions, Germany will with little doubt turn communist or have a resurgence of nazism, unless it is violently surpressed. This could drag on for decades, even until today (something like 25 million deaths does not go down well, as history proves) - it would make every attempt to reform Germany into a democracy useless.

Depending on the circumstances, the Allies could decide to label Germany "European containment zone" and ship all undesirables (murderers, commies) over there. This could make for a rather dystopian TL, as the allies would have to be fascist-leaning enough to do that.

You could also throw the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakker-Schut_Plan into it, for variety.

 

[oberdada]

things that could help (so probably unlikely):

Hitler goes into hiding
politicians like Schumacher or Adenauer shot by Ally soldiers
Less cruel Red Army, maybe not implkementing any rule on soviet ocupation zone

 

[Steffen]

The success model of the social market economy and the monetary reform were implemented with a narrow margin in 1947.

If the idea of a grand coaliton with nationalised industries would have been followed, the fast economic growth and it´s transformation of the society would have been most unlikely.


or For example:

A judicical POD

Herrenchiemsee Convent fails to draft a workable provisional constitution.

One of the key figures was Prof. Dr. Carl Schmid (SPD), who took part as one of two delegates for Württemberg-Hohenzollern, but both delegates were within the rights of the Christian Democrats. If State President Gebhard Müller doesn´t voluntarily cede one of the two delegates for Württemberg-Hohenzollern to the Social Democrats specifically to send Schmid, it might be one of the causes.

 

[Tom Veil]

Pick any 2 or 3 of these, and you should have a good civil war:
1) Hitler survives, goes into hiding
2) No Marshall Plan
3) Soviet - Western Allies war breaks out
4) British plan of executing Nazis without trials goes into effect
5) Soviets relocate Germans to Siberia
6) Civil rights abuses in the French occupation zone
7) Logistical gaffes lead to water and food shortages
8) Austria refuses to surrender

 

[backstab]

try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

The plan for the German Resistance

 

[David bar Elias]

Combine FaT with an extreme Morganthau Plan, then add in a bit of Escape From New York for added measure.

 

[Hapsburg]

How's this for a shattered Germany:

Take note, partisan activity is rampant throughout the borders.

 

[Alayta]

Please take that map away!!!!
No Hessia!!! thats absolutly impossible!!!


Why are you all sticking so near to the war?
I could imagine something in the sixties. More and espesciually more of the young people are attracted by NPD or other neonaziparties. Those who are going to become the 68er-generation are going to fight them... Stasi puts oil in the flames - we might get some sort of civilwar???

 

[Steffen]

Please take that map away!!!!
No Hessia!!! thats absolutly impossible!!!


Why are you all sticking so near to the war?
I could imagine something in the sixties. More and espesciually more of the young people are attracted by NPD or other neonaziparties. Those who are going to become the 68er-generation are going to fight them... Stasi puts oil in the flames - we might get some sort of civilwar???

Reminds a bit of " A little town in Germany" by Le Carré.


Or the RAF gets more momentum, 70s see massive street battles between armed party youth movements...

 

[Rasputin]

A plausible POD may be Hitler surviving and going into hiding in the Bavarian south. As he was the technical head of state and head of government, that would mean that the German government would be incapable of agreeing to an effective surrender. Instead of ceasing operations entirely on May 8th, instead we'd have individual units surrendering and maybe a surrender of most of the government but no general German surrender. Instead the Nazi government would simply disperse in all directions.

By the end of May the Wehrmacht would be militarily defeated and the soldiers would have either surrendered or fled to the hills, so without any effective army in the field there wouldn't be a signatory defeat of Nazi Germany but instead an 'end of military operations'. Guns would be flooding the country-side, and although Hitler himself would be a marginalised and continuously hunted non-entity, the idea of the German race still fighting to drive out the invaders would pervade.

But then again the dynamics are different. The Iraqi insurgency is being fed more by religious fanaticism than resurgent Ba'athism. Indeed, the pressures the Anglo-American forces are facing have been widely perceived to be the eruption of a pressure-cooker that Saddam had in fact been using all his might to keep a lid on while he was still in power. For the same dynamic to work in Germany you need a POD earlier than the end of the war. Maybe the neo-pagan movements the Nazis encouraged get out of hand, forcing the more prudish elements of the leadership to try to reign it back temporarily, only for it to explode in the Allies' faces once the Nazis are gone.

 

[whatisinaname]

German restence would be most strongist within the pre 1939 boarders.

If Werwolf had be done much better then the allies would have a fight on their hands. The allies would not be equiped for this sort of action.

The allies may come down hard on the German population.

Even some parts of occupied Germany may become no go areas.

The allies may be forced out of Germany and just blockade instead.

Hitler alive would cause the allies a lot of problems as well large parts of the German army becoming restance fighters.

 

[Nicole]

How's this for a shattered Germany:

Take note, partisan activity is rampant throughout the borders.

Why did you give Salzburg and Tyrol to Bavaria?

 

[Fletch]

How to mess up West Germany....

Hmmmm...


Allied Powers Edict
-Execute every suspected leading Nazi, without trial.
-Take away anything that can rebuild the economy, in an effort to rebuild the British and French economies.
-For every British, French or American Soldier killed, 100 germans will be executed.
-Set up a new Secret Police to infiltrate German Society.
-Every minor member of the Nazi Party would be sent to Concentration Camps as transit camps, and as required be sent to Britain or France to help rebuild London, Coventry, Clydebank etc...
-Every Communist should be sent to prison.
-50% of the German Economy every year for 500 years is to be shared out amongst the allies.
-Every German over the age of 21 is to be sterilised.
-German as a language is to be outlawed for anyone under the age of 12, English or French, depending on which sector they are in, is to be taught in schools.
-German Children are to be forced to recite how they are inferior they are to the allied nations in schools, if they wish to remain German.
-In the British and French sectors, they(the children) are to be given the option of British or French names and nationality, on condition that they move to the British or French colonies.
-All babies are to be sent to the Allied nations to be brought up as British, French, American etc..

Think this would pretty much mess up West Germany.

 

[Max Sinister]

"-For every British, French or American Soldier killed, 100 germans will be executed."

That'd be worse than the nazis did in Soviet Union (for every soldier killed, 50 communists were executed).

But indeed, it'd screw up Germany.

 

[Andromedos]

Actually, the Morgenthau Plan was at least partially and temporarily implemented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan#Implementation

If order JCS 1067 is not repealed over time, France indeed annexes the Ruhr and Saar regions, Germany will with little doubt turn communist or have a resurgence of nazism, unless it is violently surpressed. This could drag on for decades, even until today (something like 25 million deaths does not go down well, as history proves) - it would make every attempt to reform Germany into a democracy useless.

Depending on the circumstances, the Allies could decide to label Germany "European containment zone" and ship all undesirables (murderers, commies) over there. This could make for a rather dystopian TL, as the allies would have to be fascist-leaning enough to do that.

You could also throw the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakker-Schut_Plan into it, for variety.

Wherwolf would be an interesting possibility, but most of the germans were sick of war by 1945, and did not support any upcoming resistance.
For more resistance in West Germany, we'd need more draconic allies, and also no cold war. The Russian threat made a strong west Germany a higher priority for the western allies.