Carrier based kriegsmarine

Perhaps the path of least resistance is to sign AGNA as it's necessary for legitimising re-armament. Instead of building S&G, focus on the 5 CA and 5 CVL on the same hulls - yep 16,000 tons each. By prioritising carrier and cruiser tonnage first, you may delude the RN for long enough to have 5 hunting groups in service by early war. You would also need to rely on Dithermarchen type tankers to support the groups out on the trade routes.

German ideas on carriers were scaled up on the mail service catapult ships - fling the plane into the air with a catapult. The deck for GZ was really just a 'landing on' affair. The plane was to sit on a trolley to be catapulted - hopefully the trolley stopped and didn't bugger up the whole system. It meant you didn't need to turn into the wind but you ran out of compressed air, perhaps before you can launch a full strike.

As Pugh in 'Cost of Seapower' points out, at a ton for ton cost, the KM surface ships were just as effective as the u-boats at sinking merchant tonnage. Hunter killer groups able to find and perhaps wing ships for the cruisers to dispatch may give the RN a multi-dimentional threat it has difficulty dealing with.
 
German ideas on carriers were scaled up on the mail service catapult ships - fling the plane into the air with a catapult. The deck for GZ was really just a 'landing on' affair. The plane was to sit on a trolley to be catapulted - hopefully the trolley stopped and didn't bugger up the whole system. It meant you didn't need to turn into the wind but you ran out of compressed air, perhaps before you can launch a full strike.
And then the catapult system took 30mn to recharge... and I love the secondaries placed in barbetes... like a pre-WWI ship...
 
What is happening with the anglo-german naval agreement of 1935 in this scenario, is it still on or not?

Imo, perhaps a bit too far from the OP, but what could be given up to build more carriers are the heavy cruisers. Replace those with carriers and you have 5 hulls, plus GZ and planned sistership 7. Can still build the twins as improved Deutschlands like initially planned, and the Bismarcks as either Gneisenaus with 9x 280 mm or with 6 x 380mm guns. So you still have 7 raiders and possibly as many as 7 carriers. Or one can mix and match. Not quite sure of the british reaction, if there is still a naval agreement the germans can still build say 3 x 15,500 tons declared carriers (but in reality closer to 20,000 tons, basically slightly reduced GZs), but for the others it depends if they are seen as over the quota or actually not, since the british were increasing their carrier fleet at this time (in the 1930s they ordered 7 large carriers before the war)

Assuming that the RN's annualised costs are not too different from German costs, if you dump the three heavy cruisers that were built, you save 323,000 GBP per annum each. That will get you two carriers with 15 a/c each. The costs assume that each aircraft has a five-year life, which is very dubious for a navy that has never operated a carrier before.

I don't think it's a bad idea for the KM to get some light carriers, but they weren't going to be able to replace cruisers with carriers on a 1 to 1 basis.

The RN figures are from Chatfield in 1938. He said that the cost of building and operating ships, averaged over their life span and using a battleship as a basis, ran like this;

35,000 ton battleship - 100%
36 aircraft carrier - 126.5%
15 a/c carrier - 72.7%
Heavy/large cruiser - 45.7%
Small cruiser - 31.7% (probably an Arethusa IIRC)
Destroyer flotilla of 8 J Class - 75%
Submarine (1000 t) - 9.25%

As noted earlier that assumed a 5 year lifespan for aircraft. The RN found they needed, IIRC, 400% reserves for aircraft. In the war the actual lifespan of carrier aircraft dropped enormously and the carriers became dramatically more expensive to run.

The figures also make battleships look pretty cheap. I have some USN figures somewhere and they also show that heavy cruisers cost a lot for the punch. I'm a small-ship fan but these figures show why navies liked battleships - they really did have a lot of combat power and deterrent value for their cost.

Incidentally, the RN figures also show that the common claims that you could get many dozens of subs or so for each Bismarck are wrong, because they only include capital costs. Around the same time the RAF and RN agreed that a battleship cost as much to buy and run as 40 bombers, which (given the date of the calculation) probably meant Blenheims or Whitleys or Harrows. Given the lack of efficacy of many bombers, and their high loss rate, such a comparison makes all naval vessels look like pretty good value.
 
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thaddeus

Donor
Perhaps the path of least resistance is to sign AGNA as it's necessary for legitimising re-armament. Instead of building S&G, focus on the 5 CA and 5 CVL on the same hulls - yep 16,000 tons each. By prioritising carrier and cruiser tonnage first, you may delude the RN for long enough to have 5 hunting groups in service by early war. You would also need to rely on Dithermarchen type tankers to support the groups out on the trade routes.

German ideas on carriers were scaled up on the mail service catapult ships - fling the plane into the air with a catapult. The deck for GZ was really just a 'landing on' affair. The plane was to sit on a trolley to be catapulted - hopefully the trolley stopped and didn't bugger up the whole system. It meant you didn't need to turn into the wind but you ran out of compressed air, perhaps before you can launch a full strike.

As Pugh in 'Cost of Seapower' points out, at a ton for ton cost, the KM surface ships were just as effective as the u-boats at sinking merchant tonnage. Hunter killer groups able to find and perhaps wing ships for the cruisers to dispatch may give the RN a multi-dimentional threat it has difficulty dealing with.

that is certainly a better program than what was constructed (or under construction) historically. especially the scaled down size carriers would seem a more appropriate and feasible project.

I would propose an alternative, the KM had plans for ships for several purposes all approx. 6,000t. (Spahkreuzer https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/spahkreuzer/index.html Minenleger https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/minelayer/minelayer/index.html and even a CVL https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/carrier/cvl/index.html)

I do not have a projected number other than numerous and this could eclipse the historical 40-odd DDs also in favor of properTBs* and the Spahkreuzers, the minelayers were planned for double duty from the outset anyways (so they could be used as fleet tenders and ferries also)

there is also the Dithmarschen-class which could be built in large numbers as they have commercial value during the interwar period. they could have bartered transport for oil, stockpiled more for wartime.

*TBs built off the Bremse, then an earlier TB 1939 or Elbing class, followed by actually building their mooted 1944 design (took into consideration Atlantic operations) these are all 1,700t boats, in parallel my build would have 1,700t enlarged M-boats (addition to the historical vessels not replacements)
 
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One of the advantages of the Fi 167 was the fact that even with a full load it could take off from a CV deck with not much of a wind over the bow. Landing was even easier with the aircraft being able to almost hover over a spot with a good head wind and literally let it self land vertically. It was made to be used without having to use a catapult to launch or have an arresting gear to l and on board.
 
FYI:
The germans used steam-catapult from 1934 onwards, either fed from the ships boilers or by H2O2-steamgenerator.
Afaik, those were used in cruisers/BBs only. I cannot find references of the carrier using anything other than a compressed air system. (btw, I misswrote: the reaload time was closer to 50mn...). Perhaps it was planned for the next ship of the class?
 
One of the advantages of the Fi 167 was the fact that even with a full load it could take off from a CV deck with not much of a wind over the bow. Landing was even easier with the aircraft being able to almost hover over a spot with a good head wind and literally let it self land vertically. It was made to be used without having to use a catapult to launch or have an arresting gear to l and on board.
Yeah, that plane was amazing. Closest thing to a Harrier at the time...
 
Perhaps a different PoD would be during the German-Soviet cooperation of the late 1920s that rather than offering submarine cooperation in the Black Sea they cooperate to design & build a carrier in the Soviet Far East.
I would not expect anything earth-shaking from this design probably just a cruiser conversion but it would give both nations experience in how & especially how not to operate a carrier. Then in the 1930s a proper design could be attempted

As an aside a possible Soviet Pacific carrier squadron might cause both the IJN & USN to have to take them into account for future operations.
 
Perhaps a different PoD would be during the German-Soviet cooperation of the late 1920s that rather than offering submarine cooperation in the Black Sea they cooperate to design & build a carrier in the Soviet Far East.
I would not expect anything earth-shaking from this design probably just a cruiser conversion but it would give both nations experience in how & especially how not to operate a carrier. Then in the 1930s a proper design could be attempted

As an aside a possible Soviet Pacific carrier squadron might cause both the IJN & USN to have to take them into account for future operations.
Question: what shipyards did the USSR had in the far east?
 
Question: what shipyards did the USSR had in the far east?
Looks like Vladivostok had a number of, at least ship repair yards, since the late 1800s. Which is as you might expect for the Russian & later Soviet naval base in the Far East.
Just glancing at the Wikipedia articles it does look like the IJA carried off what they could after occupying it during the Russian Civil War.
 
Looks like Vladivostok had a number of, at least ship repair yards, since the late 1800s. Which is as you might expect for the Russian & later Soviet naval base in the Far East.
Just glancing at the Wikipedia articles it does look like the IJA carried off what they could after occupying it during the Russian Civil War.
They probably can rebuild based on machinery designs for shipyards elsewhere
 

Garrison

Donor
If what the Germans wanted is ships to be the eyes of the fleet how about a hybrid of their merchant raiders and a CAM ship? I can see that appealing to the Germans and lot easier to disguise than building carriers.
 
that is certainly a better program than what was constructed (or under construction) historically. especially the scaled down size carriers would seem a more appropriate and feasible project.

I would propose an alternative, the KM had plans for ships for several purposes all approx. 6,000t. (Spahkreuzer https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/spahkreuzer/index.html Minenleger https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/minelayer/minelayer/index.html and even a CVL https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/carrier/cvl/index.html)

I do not have a projected number other than numerous and this could eclipse the historical 40-odd DDs also in favor of properTBs* and the Spahkreuzers, the minelayers were planned for double duty from the outset anyways (so they could be used as fleet tenders and ferries also)

there is also the Dithmarschen-class which could be built in large numbers as they have commercial value during the interwar period. they could have bartered transport for oil, stockpiled more for wartime.

*TBs built off the Bremse, then an earlier TB 1939 or Elbing class, followed by actually building their mooted 1944 design (took into consideration Atlantic operations) these are all 1,700t boats, in parallel my build would have 1,700t enlarged M-boats (addition to the historical vessels not replacements)

A carrier with 12-15 aircraft could be a good fighter or recce unit, but as your source says this 6000 tonner wouldn't have been able to maintain the same speed as other KM units. The British thought that a fighter carrier that could do 31+ knots with 12 fighters would need to be 10,550 tons deep displacement.

It's hard to see what such a small carrier would do as an offensive weapon. One good internet contributor says that the early war RN scored torpedo hits with every 20th or 40th torpedo. I'd have thought it was a bit higher (I think it was 3 of 24 in the Bismarck chase). Assuming that the 3 in 24 rate is achieved by the KM, and that over half the aircraft carried in the 6000 tonner are torpedo aircraft that are used as such (that's about all that could be ranged on the short deck in two waves, and will also allow for a few fighters and recce aircraft) a typical full strike would score one hit. In the North Atlantic it seems that it was hard to run two strikes in a day (and that was on a full size carrier, with much more space and an easier motion as well as more take-off and ranging space) so it's very arguable that on average, such a ship would score two torpedo hits per day at most. That doesn't seem like a particularly efficient method of sinking vessels.

The RN figures quoted above were prepared by the First Sea Lord for the Australian and UK governments and they seem to be the best available calculation of the entire cost of running ships of different classes (which is very different from purchase price). Assuming that this vessel has a similar price/aircraft ratio as the planned 1930s UK light carrier, it comes out at 72.7% of the cost of a 35,000 ton battleship to buy and run. On a price/ton ratio the 6000 tonner is about 35% the cost of a 35,000 ton battleship, but that's way too little because workshops etc don't reduce in line with tonnage. On British figures, running 15 aircraft alone would cost 24% as much as the whole cost of running a 35,000 ton battleship. Running of the ship will probably another 18-20%. So on that basis the 6000 tonner would cost 43% as much as a battleship. Averaging out the two estimates we see a relative cost of about 57% of a Scharnhorst.

So if we axe the Twins, we get about four 6000 ton carriers with 60 a/c. One of them would have to remain on training duty so we have three for sea.

The Spahrkreuzers are about the same size as an Arethusa or Dido, so they would cost roughly 32% as much to build and run as a Scharnhorst. Assuming T and B cost as much as a Scharnhorst per ton, if they were dumped then it would be the equivalent of 2.34 Scharnhorsts which would buy you 7.3 Spahrkreuzers.

So by dumping the big ships, we now have a force of 7 light cruisers and (at best) four very light carriers. They will be up against a British cruiser force of about 80 ships, most of them equal to a Spahkreuzer in a battle. A force of 6000 ton carriers and Spahkreuzers could not run from a British cruiser, and the chance of the aircraft knocking out the sort of cruiser force the British could put up against them seems to be very slim. It's hard to see how such a force would be as much of a worry for the British as the four battleships were.

As an example, the Hipper and Lutzow and their accompanying heavy destroyers were quite powerful foes, but they did very little at Barents Sea. A Spahkreuzer would surely find it hard to get within torpedo range of a convoy with an R Class or County class as an escort, without great risk.

To get anything like 40 6000 tonners and run them, it seems that you would have to cancel all the Scharnhorsts and Bismarcks, plus all of the Hippers, plus ALL of the U-Boats, PLUS two destroyer flotillas, plus a bomber wing and a panzer division or two. (I had the calcs but lost them in tab error, but these figures aren't too far out).

On top of that it seems that you want to increase the cost of the destroyers and take the M Class from 600 tons to 1700 tons. Assuming that the 1700 ton Ms cost the same as a 1370 ton River class frigate (240k) then you'll run about 20 Ms for the cost of a Scharnhorst. Such Ms would cost about 4 times as much as the OTL Ms, assuming that the latter cost as much as a cheaper, slower and less well armed Admiralty type trawler (57k). So to 20 new Ms and pay for their running, you'll have to get Goering to throw away another 40 twin engined bombers.

I do think that a "fighter carrier" with recce aircraft could have made German heavy ships very much harder to handle (although I may be wrong because they are likely to be unable to do much to save Bismarck or Scharnhorst due to the weather those actions took place in. However, a slow ship seems to be the wrong sort of light carrier, and a KM composed of 6000 tonners is unlikely to really harm or scare the British. Finally, to pay for 40+ 6000 tonners would mean significant hits in the german army and air force budget.

(PS - while I'm not a battleship fan per se and prefer small vessels, the RN in WW2 spent about 40 million on building new battleships (the KGVs, which sank two enemy battleships) and 51 million on Coastal Forces which claimed 26 destroyers, corvettes, minesweepers etc plus two subs. Using UK build costs, the KGVs cost 40 mill and sank about 18 million dollars worth of enemy warships, giving a cost/benefit ratio of .45. Assuming that the "median" warship sunk by coastal forces was as much as a River class (which is probably a gross over-estimate) they sank very roughly 6.25 million pounds worth of ships, giving a cost/benefit ratio of .12. Coastal Forces also sank merchant vessels and E Boats, but it's an interesting illustration on the supposed claims that battlewagons were vastly expensive and of little use.

As offensive weapons, the battlewagons were clearly more cost effective which puts an interesting light on the claims that they were too expensive)
 
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If what the Germans wanted is ships to be the eyes of the fleet how about a hybrid of their merchant raiders and a CAM ship? I can see that appealing to the Germans and lot easier to disguise than building carriers.
A CAM ship? You mean single use catapulted planes?
 
If what the Germans wanted is ships to be the eyes of the fleet how about a hybrid of their merchant raiders and a CAM ship? I can see that appealing to the Germans and lot easier to disguise than building carriers.
If the objective is spotting and surveillance, at what point do autogyros and helicopters become viable to use in Baltic and in North Atlantic conditions? And what then does this permit in terms of a fast light vessel that can help extend the effective scouting range?
 
If what the Germans wanted is ships to be the eyes of the fleet how about a hybrid of their merchant raiders and a CAM ship? I can see that appealing to the Germans and lot easier to disguise than building carriers.
Well they sort of had these:
ger_cv23.gif

330280188_698306428759413_1850238139507322309_n.jpg


Probably if any navy needed a hybrid flight deck cruiser, it was Germany.
 
As merchant raiders go, kind of hard to hide compared to a few fixed weapons.
Yeah. And seaplanes do not make good strike aircraft: too slow to recover, if the catapult fails they are either stuck or have to be lowered to the water, slowing things down, limited payload...
 
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