Canadian Gaelic

[durante]

IOTL Cape Breton, which would become the center of the Gaelic speaking community in Canada, was a separate colony from Nova Scotia briefly from after the ARW until 1820.

If it's not reintegrated into Nova Scotia in 1820, it would become a majority Gaelic speaking colony.

The addition of a fourth small colony could lead to a greater impetus for Maritime integration, and a Maritime Union (perhaps including Newfoundland) could emerge before Confederation. In this Maritime Union, Gaelic could be an official language.

When the Maritimes and the Canadas Confederate, Gaelic could be Canada's third official language. Constitutional official language policy (government services to be provided where numbers warrant) would lead to geographical concentration over time and there could be minor Gaeltachts on the prairies, the west coast, yukon, Southern Ontario and the Eastern Townships of Quebec in addition to the major one on the east coast.

 

[funnyhat]

It could be predominantly Gaelic-speaking in 1820, but would it stay that way?

The British did not plan for a multilingual Canada in the long run. Ultimately they expected the francophones OTL to assimilate, and this did happen in parts of the country. What happened in Québec, though, was that the francophone birth rate was extremely high, so that anglophone immigration could not outpace it, and the Catholic Church was also a powerful defender of francophone interests (enough that many Irish Catholic immigrants assimilated into francophone society).

What would keep Cape Breton Gaelic?

 

[Brady Kj]

That's a great idea. But I wonder if there really were enough Gaelic speakers to have towns all over Canada?

 

[durante]

That's a great idea. But I wonder if there really were enough Gaelic speakers to have towns all over Canada?

According to Wikipedia, there were about 200,000 Gaelic speakers on the east coast around 1850.

They were a majority in both Nova Scotia and PEI, and this number represents about 40% of the Maritime provinces at the time.

Cape Breton could serve as the nucleus of a community, with official status there, and if it gains official status it's likely to draw many of the Gaelic speakers who immigrated elsewhere IOTL.

I'm not sure that today you would have a predominately Gaelic speaking province, but rather large areas of bilingualism.

I don't see entirely separate Gaelic speaking towns, either, but rather, certain historically Gaelic speaking communities which have schools, associations, and offer language classes alongside French in the English language school boards.

Essentially, make the status of the language in today's Nova Scotia analogous to the status in the rest of Canada, and have a majority of Capers be functionally bilingual, with many from the adjacent areas of the Atlantic provinces bilingual as well.

Of particular interest are the provinces that IOTL have separate Catholic Public School boards; in Ontario for example there may be some rural areas of the province where the Catholic School Board becomes a cultural focus for the Gaelic language speakers as well.

 

[Anneessens]

Cape Breton could serve as the nucleus of a community, with official status there, and if it gains official status it's likely to draw many of the Gaelic speakers who immigrated elsewhere IOTL.

I'm certainly not excluding the theoretical possibilty of a continuing Gaelic presence somewhere in the America's, but I'm not sure if merely the fact of Gaelic having an official status in Cape Breton would be enough of a pull factor for Britain's Gaelic speakers. It might be an element, but immigrants are generally more concerned by more mundane criteria when chosing their place to emigrate to (most importantly: can I feed a family there?). At the very best, it might be a factor when deciding between two equally attractive destinations.
I'm also not convinced that such a (large) Gaelic speaking community would survive until this day, even with an official status for Gaelic - certainly not if it's co-official with English. The tendency to switch to the prestige language will remain very high.

 

[durante]

I'm certainly not excluding the theoretical possibilty of a continuing Gaelic presence somewhere in the America's, but I'm not sure if merely the fact of Gaelic having an official status in Cape Breton would be enough of a pull factor for Britain's Gaelic speakers. It might be an element, but immigrants are generally more concerned by more mundane criteria when chosing their place to emigrate to (most importantly: can I feed a family there?). At the very best, it might be a factor when deciding between two equally attractive destinations.
I'm also not convinced that such a (large) Gaelic speaking community would survive until this day, even with an official status for Gaelic - certainly not if it's co-official with English. The tendency to switch to the prestige language will remain very high.

All great points. My general thinking was that some non-zero number of Irish Gaelic speakers may decide to settle on the east coast of Canada rather than the USA during an Gorta Mor. And given the number of speakers c. 1850, more immigrants may not be necessary, but rather just keeping them Gaelic speaking.

If there are 200,000 Gaelic speakers in Canada in 1850 - and given that IOTL the Canadian population double roughly every 40 years up to 1970 (and its taken about 50 to double since then), I kinda of see this:

Between 1850 and 1890 there is no reason IMHO why the Gaelic population couldn't grow at the same rate as the Canadian population. Virtually all the immigrants during this time were from Britain.

So 400,000 speakers by 1890. After 1890, however, it's unlikely they could keep pace with population growth. But even avoiding outright decline (while admitting that between 1890 and 1970 the community is likely to switch from Gaelic monolingualism to Gaelic-English bilingualism); if they grow at half the national average, you could have 800,000 speakers (or, to follow the Irish example, "people who claim to speak") by 1970, and then again up to say 1.2 million "speakers" or rather "people who choose to learn Gaelic at school whether or not they are functionally fluent", or about 3.3% of the population.

If 2/3 live on the east coast, they represent about 1/3 of the Atlantic provinces population.

The Canadian constitution could have provisions, or conventions, that there has to be 1 fluent Gaelic speaker on the supreme court, or 8 Senators from the maritimes, etc, which give reason to "learn" the language whether or not actual day to day usage is frequent.

 

[durante]

Jonathan Dembling created a map for St Francis Xavier University which shows Gaelic language usage in Canada as of 1901.

My home area, the Bruce (Bruis) and adjacent Grey County were still Gaeltachts at that time. The usage of the language on the east coast is better known, but in the late 19th century its estimated by StFX that there were as many as 100,000 speakers in the rest of Canada.

 

[DanMcCollum]

I'm certainly not excluding the theoretical possibilty of a continuing Gaelic presence somewhere in the America's, but I'm not sure if merely the fact of Gaelic having an official status in Cape Breton would be enough of a pull factor for Britain's Gaelic speakers. It might be an element, but immigrants are generally more concerned by more mundane criteria when chosing their place to emigrate to (most importantly: can I feed a family there?). At the very best, it might be a factor when deciding between two equally attractive destinations.
I'm also not convinced that such a (large) Gaelic speaking community would survive until this day, even with an official status for Gaelic - certainly not if it's co-official with English. The tendency to switch to the prestige language will remain very high.

That depends. Generally speaking, practical concerns are certainly a major pull factor for immigration: one is going to want to move to a place where they know that they can make a living. However, chain-migration and finding a place where they feel at home is another major concern. I could definitely see a colonization society being formed to draw more Gaelic speakers to the region, if Gaelic has already been established and has some governmental authority. In such a situation, Cape Breton and surrounding regions could effectively become a stopping-over position for new immigrants: they move there for a number of years before setting out to other communities in the West (or, even more likely, the new settlers buy the land of emigrants who are following their family members out West. This could actually solve some of the pull factors issues: if established farmers are moving West to better land, than new immigrants would be drawn into existing language communities where they have the potential to purchase already developed land. Even if its not the best land, its likely a better situation than what they came from. Gaelic's position is strengthened if some of those leaving are English-speaking families).

I do think you are somewhat exaggerating the case for eventually taking on English however - or, more to the point, its something which can be mitigated. If Gaelic becomes an official language in the region, and we see an out-migration of English-speaking farmers, then it could effectively become the prestige language, or close to it, within the region. English would always remain the language of the Canadian government, of course, but that could play to Gaelic's advantage as well. All you need is a perception that Gaelic-speakers are being put upon, or that Cape Breton and the surrounding Maritimes are being disadvantaged by the Confederation government (not a particularly difficult thing to imagine, considering the regional antagonisms at play during the first decades of Confederation) to stoke a national movement - or, I suppose, a strong Regional movement - which places Gaelic speaking at the center of the group's identity. You do this, and people will fight like hell to keep their language and customs in the face of some perceived Big Bad force of cultural assimilation.

This group consciousness would be maintained as people moved westward - especially as the West made the forming of ethnic enclaves very easy. You would have communities where the language was used in local government, in the churches and in the schools out West. And if these communities had a tendency of clustering together, you'd have regional bubbles of Gaelic language out West that would be able to maintain itself for quite some time., Whether it could do so indefinitely is the question, of course - but likely it could for a a fairly long span of time.

 

[durante]

It could be predominantly Gaelic-speaking in 1820, but would it stay that way?

The British did not plan for a multilingual Canada in the long run. Ultimately they expected the francophones OTL to assimilate, and this did happen in parts of the country. What happened in Québec, though, was that the francophone birth rate was extremely high, so that anglophone immigration could not outpace it, and the Catholic Church was also a powerful defender of francophone interests (enough that many Irish Catholic immigrants assimilated into francophone society).

What would keep Cape Breton Gaelic?

In addition to the high birth rates, they also had guarantees of their right to education in the French language, as well as provision of courts and government services. With the Gaelic language afforded the same, it should slow the decline of the language and attract some of those Irish Catholics who integrated into the French population IOTL.

Due to it's non official status, Gaelic language speakers were essentially limited to working in the mines or on farms, unless they learned English or French. Official status means Priests, Teachers, Publishers and journalists, not to mention politicians, government workers and lawyers. A full Gaelic community could develop.

 

[durante]

The numbers I'm projecting here are using OTL boundaries, and are "self-identifying with some Gaelic language knowledge":

Nfld & Labrador: c170,000; roughly 1/3 the population, greater in Avalon peninsula and Codroy valley/southwest Nfld

Cape Breton & PEI: approx. 100,000 each; roughly 2/3 the population

Peninsular NS: approx. 200-250,000; between 1/4 and 1/3; greater in NE, lower in SW

NB: c185,000; roughly 1/4; higher in Miramichi (central east coast)

Quebec: 75,000-90,000 (0.9-1.1%) with perhaps 8,000 regular users in the Eastern Townships;

Ontario: c200,000; (1.5%); roughly 1% universally with perhaps 1/3 in Bruce County and Stormont & Glengarry counties;

Manitoba: c15,000 (1.1%) with most in Winnipeg/Red river area

Saskatchewan: c 10,000 (0.9%)

Alberta: c 50,000 (1.1%) with highest numbers in Fort MacMurray area

Territories: c1000 (1%) concentrated in s Yukon

BC: c55,000 (1.1%); with the mainland at c1% and the island with c1.5%; roughly 5000 regular language users in the southern gulf islands (1/3).

 

[DanMcCollum]

In addition to the high birth rates, they also had guarantees of their right to education in the French language, as well as provision of courts and government services. With the Gaelic language afforded the same, it should slow the decline of the language and attract some of those Irish Catholics who integrated into the French population IOTL.

Due to it's non official status, Gaelic language speakers were essentially limited to working in the mines or on farms, unless they learned English or French. Official status means Priests, Teachers, Publishers and journalists, not to mention politicians, government workers and lawyers. A full Gaelic community could develop.

Question: were the Gaelic Speakers of Cape Breton mainly Catholic speakers? If not, I'm not sure how many Irish speakers would emigrate there - Irish and Scots Gaelic are definitely different languages, and a religious barrier on top of that would make things dicey: especially considering the usual sectarian strife between Presbyterians and Catholics which sprung up in the decades after 1798. However, if the religious angle is muted, it would actually be fascinating to see how this American Gaelic would develop as a hybrid between Scottish Gaelic and the western dialects of Irish.

 

[durante]

Question: were the Gaelic Speakers of Cape Breton mainly Catholic speakers? If not, I'm not sure how many Irish speakers would emigrate there - Irish and Scots Gaelic are definitely different languages, and a religious barrier on top of that would make things dicey: especially considering the usual sectarian strife between Presbyterians and Catholics which sprung up in the decades after 1798. However, if the religious angle is muted, it would actually be fascinating to see how this American Gaelic would develop as a hybrid between Scottish Gaelic and the western dialects of Irish.

Great question! Modern standard Irish and Scottish are certainly different if related languages, and at the time of immigration to Canada varieties of Gaelic could be seen as a dialect continuum from Munster to the Highlands, with Ulster Gaelic as somewhat in the middle.

In Canada, the Gaelic communities in NB and Nfld were more Irish than in NS, and that's actually why Canadian Gaelic is considered to be it's own dialect which evolved, in situ, from contact between Irish and Scottish speakers.

As an example:

How are you in modern standard Irish is "Conas a tha tu?"
In Scottish its "Ciamar a tha sibh?"

And they are not the same.

However, tu/sibh is actually the formal/informal thing; modern Irish dropped the formal sibh.

In Ulster Gaelic, one could say either the formal "Cad e mar a tha sibh?" Or the informal "Conas a tha tu?".

"Ciamar" in modern scottish is a corruption of the original "Cad e mar"; and "Conas" is likewise a Southern Irish derived corruption of the same;

 

[durante]

Question: were the Gaelic Speakers of Cape Breton mainly Catholic speakers? If not, I'm not sure how many Irish speakers would emigrate there - Irish and Scots Gaelic are definitely different languages, and a religious barrier on top of that would make things dicey: especially considering the usual sectarian strife between Presbyterians and Catholics which sprung up in the decades after 1798. However, if the religious angle is muted, it would actually be fascinating to see how this American Gaelic would develop as a hybrid between Scottish Gaelic and the western dialects of Irish.

Oops guess I didnt really answer the main question. On Cape Breton, yes, the majority of the Scottish Gaelic speakers were Catholic, although there were definitely Scottish Gaelic communities that were predominately Presbyterian throughout Canada as well.

 

[Ficboy]

Gaelic used to be the main language of Ireland but thanks to Britain occupying the country from the 1600s until 1921 now English is the official language. Since Canada is by and large a British colony as much as it is a French colony, it will be difficult to get Gaelic (Irish and Scottish languages) to even emerge as a distinct third language besides English and French.

 

[durante]

Jonathan Dembling created a map for St Francis Xavier University which shows Gaelic language usage in Canada as of 1901.

My home area, the Bruce (Bruis) and adjacent Grey County were still Gaeltachts at that time. The usage of the language on the east coast is better known, but in the late 19th century its estimated by StFX that there were as many as 100,000 speakers in the rest of Canada.

Gaelic language usage in Canada, 1901.
Source: Wikipedia, reproduced from Jonathan Dembling's "Gaelic in Canada: New insight from an old census", 2006.

 

[durante]

Gaelic used to be the main language of Ireland but thanks to Britain occupying the country from the 1600s until 1921 now English is the official language. Since Canada is by and large a British colony as much as it is a French colony, it will be difficult to get Gaelic (Irish and Scottish languages) to even emerge as a distinct third language besides English and French.

IOTL Senator Robert McInnes tabled a bill in 1890 to make Gaelic Canada's third official language, citing the 18 Senators at the time who spoke it. It was defeated 42-7.

You're entirely right in implying that a major obstacle to its recognition was lack of official status in Ireland and Scotland. IOTL Cape Breton was majority Gaelic by 1850. In a TL where it remains separate from NS, when Cape Breton achieves self rule along with the rest of the BNA colonies in the 1850s, it would be almost implausible for a government to not acknowledge the language there.

This allows for the possibility of Gaelic to be entrenched in Canada before Confederation occurs.

Also, Irish is one of Ireland's two official languages, although the number of actual daily users is very small.

 

[Ficboy]

IOTL Senator Robert McInnes tabled a bill in 1890 to make Gaelic Canada's third official language, citing the 18 Senators at the time who spoke it. It was defeated 42-7.

You're entirely right in suggesting that a major obstacle to its recognition was lack of official status in Ireland and Scotland. IOTL Cape Breton was majority Gaelic by 1850. In a TL where it remains separate from NS, when Cape Breton achieves self rule along with the rest of the BNA colonies in the 1850s, it would be almost implausible for a government to not acknowledge the language there.

This allows for the possibility of Gaelic to be entrenched in Canada before Confederation occurs.

Cape Breton and Nova Scotia are not big enough to really form a distinct nation from Canada given the cultural similarities they shared with the rest of the country. If Canada ever does approve a third language then it will definitely not be Gaelic (Irish and Scottish) and in OTL it's Punjabi. Though as you point out, if Cape Breton is separate from Nova Scotia and make Gaelic a third language then they might be able to introduce more widely to the rest of Canada and make it an official language alongside English and French. It also helps that there are many European-Canadians of Irish and Scottish (British) descent so Cape Breton having embrace Gaelic much sooner will lead to it becoming the third language of Canada or a trilingual nation if you will.

 

[durante]

Cape Breton and Nova Scotia are not big enough to really form a distinct nation from Canada given the cultural similarities they shared with the rest of the country. If Canada ever does approve a third language then it will definitely not be Gaelic (Irish and Scottish) and in OTL it's Punjabi. Though as you point out, if Cape Breton is separate from Nova Scotia and make Gaelic a third language then they might be able to introduce more widely to the rest of Canada and make it an official language alongside English and French. It also helps that there are many European-Canadians of Irish and Scottish (British) descent so Cape Breton having embrace Gaelic much sooner will lead to it becoming the third language of Canada or a trilingual nation if you will.

Depends on the timing. Gaelic WAS the third most widely spoken language in Canada (Scottish, Irish and Canadian varieties were considered by the census as dialects of one language) as late as the 1891 census; in 1901 Gaelic was fourth behind German; Ukrainian was third in the 1951 census (although likely only because many German speakers denied the fact); German was third again from 1961 until surpassed by Italian in 1981; and then Chinese is actually third according to the census from around 1996.

 

[Ficboy]

Depends on the timing. Gaelic WAS the third most widely spoken language in Canada (Scottish, Irish and Canadian varieties were considered by the census as dialects of one language) as late as the 1891 census; in 1901 Gaelic was fourth behind German; Ukrainian was third in the 1951 census (although likely only because many German speakers denied the fact); German was third again from 1961 until surpassed by Italian in 1981; and then Chinese is actually third according to the census from around 1996.

When I said Punjabi it's the third language in Canada just very recently.

European Canadians are basically a composite of different ethnic groups in much the same way European Americans and other American ethnic groups in general. European Canadians are essentially derived from British (English, Scottish and Ulster Scots), French (Canadien, Acadians and other related groups), Irish, German, Italian, Ukrainian, Polish, Portuguese, Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swedish and Danish) and other ethnic groups. Even the 1892-1965 Red Ensign flag of Canada reflects the British, French and Irish roots of the country in general.

 

[durante]

When I said Punjabi it's the third language in Canada just very recently.

European Canadians are basically a composite of different ethnic groups in much the same way European Americans and other American ethnic groups in general. European Canadians are essentially derived from British (English, Scottish and Ulster Scots), French (Canadien, Acadians and other related groups), Irish, German, Italian, Ukrainian, Polish, Portuguese, Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swedish and Danish) and other ethnic groups. Even the 1892-1965 Red Ensign flag of Canada reflects the British, French and Irish roots of the country in general.

According to Statistics Canada, Punjabi is currently fifth behind English, French, Mandarin and Cantonese. But certainly regionally very important.

As a European Canadian of English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Spanish, Italian, Ukrainian and Jewish descent, I agree completely that Canadians these days are quite a mix, like other settler societies and especially North Americans. I'm not entirely sure how relevant that is to the development of Gaelic in Canada during the 19th century, however.

Once the immigration from "not Britain" starts in the 1890s, of course, the Gaels wont be able to keep pace with the influx from Europe. But just as many Irish Catholics assimilated into Canada's French population IOTL, and how many of these immigrant communities maintained ethnic enclaves without any government support for generations, I think an early enough footing for Gaelic and some legal backing is all that's truly required to allow for this possibility to develop.