Canada Wank (YACW)

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So the same tech that in essence dragged Britain into the Crimean war in the first place if I am not mistaken?

trekchu

By that do you mean the way the shells smashed the small Ottoman fleet at Sinople and triggered the panic about Russian intentions and abilities? The Russians didn't have anything mobile like the floating batteries, nor did that drag Britain into the war so presuming that's not what you meant?

Also thinking about it, from what relatively little I have heard about that I think they could be better described as steam powered broadside vessels as you mentioned earlier.

Steve
 
Ummm... WEST Florida is firmly in Spanish hands at that point - the US didn't try very hard against Pensacola, and only feinted at Mobile. Their basic plan is that West Florida will be untenable if they hold East Florida and Louisiana. BUT that means that e.g. Pensacola is available as a base for attacking back into East Florida. OTOH, the Spanish 10k troops arriving will garrison West Florida handily, but may not be enough to take East Florida back. Not sure what's happening there, yet. I HAD assumed the US was going to have a walkover there, but Spain may yet give them a fight for their money...

I would think its more the terrain and the local inhabitants. Possibly less stopping an initial invasion as making it damned difficult for the US to control anywhere outside range of their fortified positions without a lot of effort and grief. Believe most of north/central Florida is a little damp shall we say and very good terrain for guerilla resistance. Once Britain stops the US moving troops and supplies by sea and starts aiding the resistance the US way wish it hadn't invaded.

Well, they were allies, anyway, so no matter HOW nice the US treated New England, the latter would surely have eventually come in on Britain's side. However, the British use of an all year port to land armies IS a hole in the US 'attack in winter when British/Canadian troops can't move' plan.

Probably but if the US was directly its hostility [diplomatic as well as military] largely towards Britain/Canada it might have at least delayed things a bit as NE could be tempted to maintain neutrality to avoid getting attacked itself. Even a short delay during the winter might be useful for the US in Canada while a NE who declares war because of treaty commitments might be a bit less united over the conflict than one the US attacks with formal declarations they intend to conquer and annex it. [But that's probably being more diplomatic than the Clay regime could manage by the sound of it.];)


[/QUOTE]A regiment and a half (about 1000 trained armed soldiers) will have NO trouble taking and holding California. And if the British control the seas, Mexico will have the most horribly tough time trying to take it back.[/QUOTE]

Why do I have the feeling that I'm seeing an impending border change here.;)


[/QUOTE]As a result of this war, Hindu, Moslem and Sikh communities (small at first) take hold in *Canada much earlier. This will test Canada's religious tolerance a lot, as Canada is really just getting a firm grip on letting any variety of Christian worship as they wish. Still, that tolerance has been successfully instilled (not that there aren't rabid anti-X pockets still for lots of values of X), and it's a basis for future advances.[/QUOTE]

It will test it but also help build it up as a lot of those settlers will have fought for the defence of the state, which always helps building communities.

Anyway, I will stop replying now [for the moment anyway;)] and let you get on with the TL.

Thanks

Steve
 
trekchu

By that do you mean the way the shells smashed the small Ottoman fleet at Sinople and triggered the panic about Russian intentions and abilities? The Russians didn't have anything mobile like the floating batteries, nor did that drag Britain into the war so presuming that's not what you meant?

Also thinking about it, from what relatively little I have heard about that I think they could be better described as steam powered broadside vessels as you mentioned earlier.

Steve

Pretty much.
 
Its a bit early fur turret ships, but Steam-powered Broadside vessels by any chance? And also, there is a PM coming in for you.
Obvious, as I said:). Think CSS Virginia/Merrimack. More mobile that the OTL Crimean war batteries, not very competent in the open ocean, not as advanced as the Monitor....

From what I can tell they could even take (some) pounding from coastal defence batteries....
 
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Steve - it looks like I mis-typed. Where I said "this is not going to be a long war by any stretch of the imagination", replace "long" with "quick". Of course New England is probably going to be prepared, if they aren't already, for a long war. They certainly know that it won't be a quick war, contrary to what Washington had in mind. (Though at this point, if CT does come away, after the aftermath, with Long Island from the 1650 boundary on east, it would be interesting since I have some ideas in mind, after consultation with BlairWitch549 ;) - the additional land territory on the NY-CT border might be a bit too much.)
 
Probably but if the US was directly its hostility [diplomatic as well as military] largely towards Britain/Canada it might have at least delayed things a bit as NE could be tempted to maintain neutrality to avoid getting attacked itself. Even a short delay during the winter might be useful for the US in Canada while a NE who declares war because of treaty commitments might be a bit less united over the conflict than one the US attacks with formal declarations they intend to conquer and annex it. [But that's probably being more diplomatic than the Clay regime could manage by the sound of it.];)

True, but with the stalemate along the NY/CT border, New England would basically have no choice but to declare war against the US. In that case, New England troops would not only fight alongside the British/Canadians/Portuguese/et. al., but also would be defending their nation from an American invasion, and probably aiming at some of the "weak links" along the US/New England border. (The New England/Canadian border near Plattsburgh won't be an issue for Vermont unless the US decides to go for it - same with New Hampshire and Maine vis-à-vis any attempt by the US to go for the Canadas proper.) In this, it would be Vermont, Berkshire, and Connecticut (maybe even Massachusetts and Rhode Island) that would take the brunt of the US force due to the border. Who knows - for example, if New England launches a surprise on New York City and/or Long Island (;)), that could prove to be a diversion that would cost the US dearly (simply because NYC and Long Island are that close to the border).

For that, though, Worcester is going to realize that relying solely on militia will no longer be enough, and a fully functional national army and navy will sorely be needed as a means not only of defending New England from a US invasion, but also because in the situation that New England is in, having a national army and navy will probably be an imperative necessity. Hence, for the most part, New England - if it goes for neutrality - would be going towards a Swiss-style "armed neutrality". Since Dathi has already decided that New England is not going to be part of Confederation but be its own nation (despite strong affinities with BNA), New England maintaining a Swiss-style "armed neutrality" would be even more imperative (though maybe in a post-War situation - at this point, New England is simply defending herself from a US invasion, as already stated).

My 2¢, if you wish.
 
Great updates, and congrats on the Turtledove! :)

Excellent news!:D:D Congratulations and great work Dathi. Now about retaining the title next year.;)

Steve

I agree - félicitations, Daði! :cool:
Well, thanks everyone who voted for this TL!

I happen to think this TL is better Alternate History than Lusitania's, but I've got to admit he tells a better story, so I wouldn't have minded (too much) losing to him.

Got to say the warm fuzzy feeling is awfully nice:)
 
various

Allied Command structure

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Overall command comes from Winchester (the new Canadian capital, OTL London Ontario). This does not mean that tactical commands all emanate from the capital. No, what we've got is essentially a series of regional commands, the Atlantic theatre (naval based out of Boston), the Lakes (in active until spring, at least), the Protectorate (where the main action is), Mississippi (St. Louis down to New Orleans, a major theatre), and Tejas (which at the moment mostly consists of trying to slow down the US/Mexican force). Whether Tejas and Louisiana stay separate theatres is a political decision. Additional possible future theatres would include Gulf Coast (splitting the Gulf of Mexico/Caribbean naval forces off the Atlantic one, which will be done soon – basically as soon as New Orleans is secured), the UPCA (which is standing in armed neutrality at the moment, no one on either side wants fighting there), the West coast (although that's such a minor theatre it won't count as a full theatre), and aiding guerilla warfare (again, is this a 'theatre' or an 'operation'). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]At the moment, the New England land forces are NOT part of the allied command structure, and will never be entirely. (At some point they may loan some forces to Canada, at which point those forces would be in the Allied command structure. OTOH, they may come up with other uses for those forces.... The NE navy IS in the Allied Command Structure – but they get a good share of the decision making power, given the strength of their navy and the use of their bases.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Similarly, Spain is a co-belligerent, but not precisely an ally, and certainly not in the command structure. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Overall strategic, political direction comes out of Winchester (or even from London to Winchester). Those are refined into strategic military commands at Military HQ (currently moving from Montreal to Winchester). Then the commanders in each theatre convert those into theatre strategy for local commanders to turn into strategy.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Saying 'Unified command coming from Winchester' is sort of short hand. The point is that e.g. a Louisiana or Tejano or Portuguese unit is plugged into a single unified command structure. There are not separate/parallel command structures for the Portuguese, for the (insular) British, for the Canadians, for the Texians, etc.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In practice, of course, the situation is not quite that clean. The foreign units have at least back-channels to their own hierarchy, and the naval theatres pay only lip service to central command in Winchester. The naval HQ in Boston (for the Atlantic coast theatre) in practice answers directly to London and Worcester (the NE capital). [/FONT]


Multi-lingualism

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]There is a significant issue with languages. Fortunately, the Canadian army has been dealing with this since day one and has lots of experience with solutions. Individual units (at the company or regimental level) will be unilingual, with provision for multiple translators on staff. Given the number of Napoleonic war vets, finding people to handle combinations of English Spanish and Portuguese isn't hard. Most of the native (protectorate) units have bilingual (having competence in a European language, usually English, sometimes French, occasionally both). The biggest problem may be the German troops – but many of their officers will speak French (the international language of diplomacy), and there are already some Germans in Canada, so making arrangements just takes a bit of thought. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fortunately, the Portuguese colonial troops, and the South American troops all speak Portuguese or Spanish, so we don't have additional problems there. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This is not to say that there won't be SOME problems, especially with words that OUGHT to mean something different than they do (prime example of the SORT of problem, not one that will cause problems, itself. Infante/a in Portuguese/Spanish means Prince/Princess (of any age); 'infant' in English means a baby, and the[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]French[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] cognate 'enfant' simply means child...) We're also going to get similar problems between Canadian/US/New England English, Brazilian/European/Angolan Portuguese, Uruguayan/European/Chilean/Tejano Spanish, European/various Canadian French. Some of the latter may actually cause more problems. You EXPECT problems BETWEEN languages.... [/FONT]


Comments on New England (again)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When I said “The New England militia are the predominant military force in the Republic.” what I meant was that it was the predominant LAND force. The navy is the 'senior service' and is federal, which isn't terribly surprising what with New England's maritime orientation. Of course, the militia is important, they're right up against the US, but it has always been viewed as purely for self defence. Depending on how they do, they may or may not keep the militia structure for their 'army'. Of course, now that I think of it, the splitting of Massachusetts into two probably eases some of the other states' worries about Massachusetts controlling the army....[/FONT]
 
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]At the moment, the New England land forces are NOT part of the allied command structure, and will never be entirely. (At some point they may loan some forces to Canada, at which point those forces would be in the Allied command structure. OTOH, they may come up with other uses for those forces.... The NE navy IS in the Allied Command Structure – but they get a good share of the decision making power, given the strength of their navy and the use of their bases.[/FONT]

I see - one of these days, though, the army will have to be given more functions.

Comments on New England (again)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When I said “The New England militia are the predominant military force in the Republic.” what I meant was that it was the predominant LAND force. The navy is the 'senior service' and is federal, which isn't terribly surprising what with New England's maritime orientation. Of course, the militia is important, they're right up against the US, but it has always been viewed as purely for self defence. Depending on how they do, they may or may not keep the militia structure for their 'army'.[/FONT]

See my comments above.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Of course, now that I think of it, the splitting of Massachusetts into two probably eases some of the other states' worries about Massachusetts controlling the army....[/FONT]

Hmm, an unintended benefit. ;) At least it lets Springfield manage the local militia easier.
 
Lakes theatre (1)

An amusing interlude in the Lakes theatre of war

Lakes theatre (1)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After outbreak of the war, a bunch of Québecois militia in the border-forts in La Rive Sud[1] are sitting talking.[/FONT]

  • Eh, Pierre, this is some fine apple-jack. You thank your cousin Jean-Louis next time you see him, would ya?
  • Sure, but just think of that cochon sitting at home drinking this stuff all winter. He's supposed to be in the militia, just like us. Why should we sit here only getting the good stuff when some type deigns to give us some.
  • Ouais, mais... We're heroically defending our hearths and rights from those sales Américains.
  • You didn't think they were so dirty last week when we traded them some of Marcelle's 'Bourbon'[2] for tobacco.
  • Tabernac' but that tobacco was good.
  • Better than the bourbon! <laughter>
  • Mind you, one could have pity on Tim and Tom and Jack, stuck in that species of American so-called fort. They NEEDED that bourbon. They may have enough to eat, but it's all salt-beef and cornmeal... And with this war on, are they going to see another friendly face? Didn't all their supplies last summer come through here?
  • Calisse, maybe we should invite them up here <laughter>
  • 'Chalice', 'Bourbon', 'Jean-Louis' …
  • Hmmm?
  • I think I have an idea!
  • Did it hurt?
  • Listen, my friends. The boys over in the American fort, they really appreciated the bourbon, right?
  • Right.
  • So.... What if we presented them with a big barrel, and then we get a bunch of our guys, bring Jean-Louis's third-third[3] company along, and when the Americans are all drunk we take the fort. We'd be heros.
  • Maybe, maybe not. Wouldn't they suspect a gift of a big barrel of rot-gut? Wouldn't they be bright enough to not all get that drunk? We are supposed to be the enemy, after all, and sure we're great guys, but we're not really pals with them, either, are we.
  • Eh.... Maybe we do it for Christmas. They'd believe as a Christmas gift.
  • Oh, right, you're going to get this all organized in 2 days?!? AND have us miss Christmas, I don't think so.
  • OK, how about this. We do it for New Years. They like celebrating New Years with lots of booze, I hear.
  • Yes, Alec mentioned that...
  • Name of a dog, this could actually work! We tell them that we're sorry that they missed Christmas, but we couldn't do anything about that, but we scrounged some drink for New Years... Ya, they might believe that.
  • Oh, Oh, Oh. How about we give them some barrels of cider, and spike it with the bourbon. Then even if they are 'careful' they won't know what hit them..
  • What about Major Smith? He'd never let us do this, not unless he was in charge, and who wants him along?
  • Well... Don't tell him
  • ????
  • We arrange this ourselves. We take the American fort. Smith tries charging us with going AWOL, and we present the Colonel with the American's fort AND Smith's complaint. Smith will look like the total cretin he is – maybe we can even get rid of him!
  • Marvellous! Good idea!
  • Hmmm.... What if the higher-ups have a real plan? If we take this fort, the Americans will be forewarned, and that might mess things up for a real offensive.
  • Jean-Luc, what a pessimist.
  • Well... Tell me if I'm wrong!
  • Hmmm... Well, how about this... Baptiste, you've got family up river, right?
  • Right
  • And Michel, down river?
  • Yeaaah.... So then?
  • What if you types go visit family for Christmas, present the idea to them. If we can take three forts, I don't think even the higher-ups can complain, do you?
  • But Major Smith would never give us permission to visit family for Christmas.
  • Sure, he will. I'll write out the leave paperwork tonight, and sign his name to it. I'll date it from last week.
  • But he'll know he didn't give us permission!?
  • Bah... I'll tell him that it was in one of the stacks of paper work he signed. Let's see, oh yes, Thursday he had a big pile that he didn't read well. We'll say he signed it then. I'll get Lieutenant Robert to say he recommended it. Yeah. And Robert can 'lead' us on the expedition and make it all official-like.
  • Hmmm....
  • So, shall we do it?
  • <general agreement>
  • Baptiste, Michel, I think you ought to leave tonight, before Major Smith can see you tomorrow. Louis, you go into town and talk to Michelle about the hooch and to Jean-Louis about getting his company ready – maybe he can arrange the cider, too, we don't want too many ears in on this. Oh, and if Smith complains later, we can say that … we were keeping it all quiet because we didn't want any American spies to hear about it....
  • Let's go.



And that's how the US Canada border moved 10 miles south in the first month of the war.[4]





[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 the south bank of the St. Lawrence – here the portion of what was northern NY that the US lost after the War of 1812[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 remember 'Bourbon' iTTL is potato vodka – in this case, basically moonshine.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 The militia groups are ranked as 'first tier' (Carignon-Salières, regular army grade), 'second tier' (deployable if necessary), and 'third tier' (home guard/self defence only). French speakers hear 'tier' as 'tiers=third', which makes sense, since there is three levels.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 the forts these guys take are small, maybe 100 man at most, in the Adirondacks south of much of the habitable land south of the St. Lawrence, accessible to the rest of the US only through Canadian territory or by back trails through the woods. This leaves forts at each end (like Port Kent on Lake Champlain) to be reduced, which is going to be harder, but they're not well connected to the US either. Point is... for most of the Lake Ontario-Lake Champlain border, the effective border has moved south... How far is an open question, as there is little US presence there. Nor can the US easily move men around to shore up this border. Yes, there well be significant reinforcement of Sackett's Harbor, but that will be New York militia, and possibly second rank militia, at that.[/FONT]
 
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Sainte Marie, Mère du Dieu - THAT's cute - it made me laugh out loud, Daði. :D And all for shipping alcohol, to boot!
 
Indiana (Protectorate) Theatre, part 1

Indiana (Protectorate) Theatre, part 1

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The British/Canadian forts on the US border varied a lot in size. There was almost a continuous line of fortification along the Maumee from Bathurst [OTL's Toledo] to Ft. Wayne [OTL's Ft. Wayne]. Similarly, Ft. Liverpool [OTL Ft. Harrison/Terre Haute] and Indianapolis were major centres, with rail switching yards, warehouses, supply depots etc. On the other hand, there were also a handful of much smaller forts with maybe as few as 100 men. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still. There were a string of major forts that held about 2000 men that anchored the line. St. Louis, Ft. Brock [near Centralia, IL], Ft. Francis [St. Francisville, IL], Liverpool, Indianapolis, Ft. Tecumseh [near Marion IN], Ft. Wayne, Ft. Necessity, and Ft. Bathurst. (The last three being on the Maumee line.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once the pincers had cut most of the forts from each other, it was time to try to reduce them. Unfortunately for the US, they made a handful of miscalculations. 1) they didn't quite realize the state of these forts. The British had been working on them for 20 years, applying all the lessons learned from the Napoleonic wars, and these were not going to be easy forts to take. The US knew that, they just underestimated how hard they'd be. 2) about half the men manning the forts were natives, more at Ft. Brock, Ft Francis and Ft. Tecumseh, less along the Maumee. While the US had no doubt at all about the valour of the native warriors, or their prowess on the open field, especially skirmishing and in guerilla warfare (which they had encountered to their sorrow the last war), they rather doubted they'd be any good at siege warfare. 3) the very suddenness of the attack meant that the locals (white settler militia and natives) didn't have time to organize the evacuation of their families. So, while the forts are massively overcrowded, there are actually twice as many people who can fire guns than there are supposed to be, counting teenagers, oldsters and many women. And the ones that can't actually fight can reload, prepare food, etc., so the fighters can fight harder. And 4) it being winter with the ground frozen (or freezing) the digging of siege trenches to slowly approach the walls is difficult. The US felt they had to attack in the winter to impede British mobility, and felt that (most of) the forts would fall without requiring extensive sapping efforts (see points 1-3). Those sorts of sieges take time, and the US wants most of their victories in place before spring breakup. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Each of the 'Indian' forts is surrounded by enough soldiers to put them under siege and prevent reinforcements from marching to the rescue. Then the various forts will be reduced in turn.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meanwhile, mobile forces are sweeping through what in OTL would be eastern Illinois, from near Ft. Brock [Centralia], up to OTL's Decatur and Champaign. They fight when necessary, but often approach a village in enough numbers that the village simply surrenders. The US troops announce that this is now US territory, and confiscate all the guns and ammunition that they find. They then build a series of strongpoints (palisaded forts) to serve as US administration and control centres. Supplies are requisitioned from the locals who are paid in scrip (reimbursable with the American government, but not likely until after the war ends). The initial sweeps are very successful, netting many guns and much in the way of provisions, but word gets out, and soon the take from each village drops significantly, with the villagers learning how to hide especially guns and other movable valuables. It's difficult to hide entire granaries, so the US can still requisition food, but they worry about the number of guns that are going missing. The first villages to claim they had NO guns suffered badly, as that was a patent lie, but later villages figured out a balance – giving up some their guns, especially the old muskets, while hiding the rest. There wasn't a lot the US forces could do, unless they actually found the hidden guns (which did happen occasionally), so there was worry for the future there. For now, many of the villagers were genuinely cowed by the US threat. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One problem that the US didn't quite take into account in the taking of the land was population density. The low density of settlement that allowed a smallish spear head[1] to sweep up and take this fairly large area also meant that there isn't a whole lot of food there. The farmers were almost all Indian in this area, and whether white or Indian, were essentially subsistence farmers. So the food they had stored was largely what they needed until the next crop comes in. So when the US soldiers take enough food to support them, the farmers are in danger of starving before harvest. Thus many farmers up stakes in the night and flee to British held territory, carrying a few possessions – and their hatred.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The local farmers also didn't use horses nearly as much as the US planners had assumed (based on their own experience), so there was a distinct shortage of forage for the US horses (most of the initial sweep, at least, was cavalry), which means that yet more grain was c/o/n/f/i/s/c/a/t/e/d/ requisitioned (in lieu of hay that WASN'T there), which means even more problems with the locals. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One advantage in the US plans that had not originally been planned on was the Maceroni rockets. Because the sweep was done cross country with cavalry, trying to pull standard artillery along would have been very difficult. It turned out that rockets could be packed in on horses/pack mules, and were perfectly adequate for dealing with such wooden palisades as might be around a fortified village.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US figures that the taking of this area is a down payment on reclaiming their land. First they take eastern Illinois [in OTL terms], then they reduce the individual forts, defeating the British/Canadians in detail, then they can take possession of more of the Protectorate. While they do know that more British reinforcements are coming, they hope to have the majority of the Protectorate under firm control before the reinforcements arrive – and by then they may be able to move north the forces that will have taken Louisiana – heck, a bunch of the Louisianan troops will surely switch sides and join the US after they've been defeated. Why should they fight for Britain, when many of them are [were] good Americans?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By the end of January, the US has this area 'pacified'[2], and has started replacing many of the cavalry spearhead with infantry. This lets the spear-head raid in other directions, north and east between Liverpool and Prophetstown (hurting British lines of communications), and west (and north) to the Illinois river. Since especially the former area is not immediately going to be occupied by the US, there is more scorched earth tactics, and infrastructure destruction (which was specifically avoided in the occupied territory.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The taking of Ft. Francis[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The first fort to be reduced is Ft. Francis. Most of the defenders are Indian, and the fort is very near the US supply base of Vincennes. It will serve as a good training ground for American forces to learn how best to reduce a fort. Once it falls, they will move on to Ft. Brock and Ft. Tecumseh and try the tougher nut of Ft. Liverpool....[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ft. Francis is very near Vincennes, the main US forward base. This meant that siege tools like large cannon were available here, where they wouldn't be in some other places. So the attack should be 'easy'.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Unfortunately for the US, the British (in this case Indians and settler militia) had other ideas.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When the US set up their siege cannon to attack the walls, they discovered that the fort had Paixhans guns with explosive shells – which could outrange the US guns (if only because they were ON the walls shooting down). This made the first attempts suicide for the gun crews. They had to pull back the cannon out of range (which made them useless), and try plan B. Hundreds of rockets were shot at the fort, but they were not very effective against the walls. (Note that a well set cannon can continually pound a specific section of a wall until it crumbles. The Maceroni rockets were far more accurate than any previous rocket used in warfare – but that didn't mean much. Hitting the FORT was easy, hitting a single section of the wall, not so much – not unless the attackers were much closer, which, again, was pretty suicidal.) What the rockets were best for, in this instance, was firing OVER the walls into the fort, and creating damage and confusion there. But that did not lead to surrender, as the US forces had hoped.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The next suggestion was formal siege warfare, digging trenches in the freezing ground, gradually inching closer to the fortress, and then setting up revetments from which the cannon could pound the walls. But that would take weeks or months, and the General in charge was under a lot of pressure to win, and win quickly. If one fort took months, how could the US take all of them by spring?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So Plan C was a massed infantry charge. 5K soldiers were thrown at the fort, carrying scaling ladders, muskets and explosive charges. Between the round shot, the shells, shrapnel, murderous rifle fire from hundreds of yards out, and then finally grapeshot, the attack didn't really have a chance. It didn't help that some of the US troops in the attack had been garrison troopers themselves, and knew intimately the destruction THEY could have meted out, and this was worse. They were also not used to attack under fire.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So the attack petered out, and rear units started pulling back without orders, even, and thousands of US dead and wounded lay on the field with nothing to show for it.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The next day, the General wanted to try again with twice the troops – several units had made it to the wall, even if no one had actually made it to the top. With twice, or thrice the wave of attackers, they might well get a foot hold at the top of the wall. Of course, the death toll would be twice or thrice (or worse), and several units categorically refused. Besides, just because they got a lodging at the top of the wall wouldn't mean they could TAKE the place, as reinforcements would still have to stream across the killing ground.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So plan D has to be to revert to the regular siege. The US has some 50k (or more) troops available[3] for this operation, and so they can besiege Ft. Francis, Ft. Brock and Ft. Liverpool all at the same time. Supplies like siege cannon and ammunition can be carried forward on the captured rail lines to those two places – get the stuff across the Wabash from the supply depot at Vincennes, and run it right up to those forts. Of course, because cannon were as much a back up plan as anything else, and because of the US difficulty with producing all the cannon she wanted for all the purposes and theatres, there aren't as many cannon here as they would like. There are, however, probably enough.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The fall back to regular siegecraft means that Ft. Tecumseh (the one near OTL Marion IN), is safe for the moment, as no cannon were brought forward to that fort. So orders have to go out to haul cannon across country there.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meanwhile, at least Ft. Brock and Ft. Tecumseh are surrounded so no defenders can get there, and Ft. Liverpool (and Indianapolis for that matter) are also cut off – as the rail line from the north (and east) go by Ft. Tecumseh and are cut off by the American forces there. Moreover, the rail line itself is cut in several different places.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 10k cavalry wouldn't have been 'smallish' in the last war, but it really is here. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 for some value of the word 'pacified'.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 They have 100k regular troops in the theatre + 30k militia. They have probably 30 or 40k on the US side of the Maumee line, trying to keep the British from counterinvading. They have 10k cavalry on the sweep into Illinois, and 5k infantry moving in to man the small forts being set up. They have some 20k (mostly the second tier militia) doing logistics and support, and about 5k protecting the supply lines (railways etc). [/FONT]
 
Dathi

Interesting that the US are starting to stall already. So many civilians in a lot of the border forts will cause problems in terms of food supplies and danger of disease. However as you say they do mean more hands for the defence. Also the men on the front line know very well what their fighting for with their families on the line. Especially for the Indians and any blacks in the region who could be treated pretty badly.

Sounds like further back the Americans are intentionally or otherwise basically depopulating the land by taking so much of the food that people have to leave or starve. This would make it easier for them to occupy it later on and will cause problems for the Canadian authorities with a flood of refugees in mid-winter. Although as you say its mainly a matter that the American army needs so much foodstuff themselves. However I think this means there are going to be a lot of people with knowledge of the territory with a strong incentive to make life hell for the occupying army.

What is going to be the American approach when attacks on supply lines start occurring? If they just threaten/attack the nearest village/settlement they could well attack people totally innocent and drive more to take up arms against them. I fear this is going to be very bloody and brutal.

I'm thinking here that a few people with rifles and knowledge of the land and weather can cause a hell of a lot of problems for American supply forces. A few pot-shots killing or crippling some of the horses pulling waggons could cause a lot of disruption and delay. Also if the Americans try and hunt down such attackers they could run into problems. Too few chasing such ambushers could get ambushed themselves. Too many and the supply train could be left too weakly defended from other attacks. A steady drain of horses and supplies lost could really put some nasty spanners in the works.

Given that there are more people in a lot of the frontier forts they will run out of food more quickly than planned but probably too late for the Americans. However it does set a limit on how long they can hold before they start having to surrender. Also given the size of the invasion force and as you say both sides are vastly underestimating the munitions requirements needed how will the gunpowder stocks hold out? The other approach that the Americans could try, but is probably unlikely given the political stance of their leaders, is to try and come to terms with some of the defenders. [Whether they would be believed if they offered to allow the Indians to live there peacefully is a moot point however but could try making some thing its a better bet than having their families in a war zone, especially considering their fate when any forts are stormed.]

What are the forts and internal buildings made of? I would have thought largely wooden buildings, in which case rockets fired over the walls would have had considerable chances of starting a lot of fires, as well as causing widespread terror in the packed civilians. However a lot of the external walls and possibly internal building could be largely earth construction, in which case they might be fairly secure against fire.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing developments. I think the Americans are going to suffer increasingly problems as the resistance organises and their advance lengthens their supply lines. However glad I'm not one of the people in the besieged forts or occupied villages/towns.

Steve
 
Dathi

Interesting that the US are starting to stall already. So many civilians in a lot of the border forts will cause problems in terms of food supplies and danger of disease. However as you say they do mean more hands for the defence. Also the men on the front line know very well what their fighting for with their families on the line. Especially for the Indians and any blacks in the region who could be treated pretty badly.
Sanitation will be a problem.
Sounds like further back the Americans are intentionally or otherwise basically depopulating the land by taking so much of the food that people have to leave or starve. This would make it easier for them to occupy it later on and will cause problems for the Canadian authorities with a flood of refugees in mid-winter. Although as you say its mainly a matter that the American army needs so much foodstuff themselves. However I think this means there are going to be a lot of people with knowledge of the territory with a strong incentive to make life hell for the occupying army.

What is going to be the American approach when attacks on supply lines start occurring? If they just threaten/attack the nearest village/settlement they could well attack people totally innocent and drive more to take up arms against them. I fear this is going to be very bloody and brutal.
problems accommodating Refugees. Yep
raising hatred (not on purpose). Yep
Bloody and brutal, in the long run. Yep.

I'm thinking here that a few people with rifles and knowledge of the land and weather can cause a hell of a lot of problems for American supply forces. A few pot-shots killing or crippling some of the horses pulling waggons could cause a lot of disruption and delay. Also if the Americans try and hunt down such attackers they could run into problems. Too few chasing such ambushers could get ambushed themselves. Too many and the supply train could be left too weakly defended from other attacks. A steady drain of horses and supplies lost could really put some nasty spanners in the works.
Shooting the draft animals. Yes. Good thought. But, ja, as soon as they start needing to seriously supply those little forts, it's going to be ... difficult.

Given that there are more people in a lot of the frontier forts they will run out of food more quickly than planned but probably too late for the Americans. However it does set a limit on how long they can hold before they start having to surrender.
The forts have a nominal 2 year supply. Dry grain, canned goods, etc. The larger number of residents will cut that, and the rocket attacks will destroy/spoil some of the food, but food isn't likely going to be the limiting factor. The Allied planning knew they couldn't stop the forts from being cut off, so they're prepared for quite a siege.

Also given the size of the invasion force and as you say both sides are vastly underestimating the munitions requirements needed how will the gunpowder stocks hold out? The other approach that the Americans could try, but is probably unlikely given the political stance of their leaders, is to try and come to terms with some of the defenders. [Whether they would be believed if they offered to allow the Indians to live there peacefully is a moot point however but could try making some thing its a better bet than having their families in a war zone, especially considering their fate when any forts are stormed.]

What are the forts and internal buildings made of? I would have thought largely wooden buildings, in which case rockets fired over the walls would have had considerable chances of starting a lot of fires, as well as causing widespread terror in the packed civilians. However a lot of the external walls and possibly internal building could be largely earth construction, in which case they might be fairly secure against fire.
Mostly wood inside the fort, I imagine. Some stone/concrete, I suppose. Yes, it's a problem. It's one of the places where the BRITISH plans for the forts didn't work out as well.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing developments. I think the Americans are going to suffer increasingly problems as the resistance organises and their advance lengthens their supply lines. However glad I'm not one of the people in the besieged forts or occupied villages/towns.

Steve
Indeed. On both accounts.
 
Dathi THorfinnsson said:
problems accommodating Refugees. Yep
raising hatred (not on purpose). Yep
Bloody and brutal, in the long run. Yep.

Ending being a British/Canadian Reconquista? ;)

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Mostly wood inside the fort, I imagine. Some stone/concrete, I suppose. Yes, it's a problem. It's one of the places where the BRITISH plans for the forts didn't work out as well.

So it's a case of a wood structure reinforced by stone/concrete? Interesting - I would've assumed that the buildings would have been all-stone.
 
Dathi

Interesting that the US are starting to stall already. So many civilians in a lot of the border forts will cause problems in terms of food supplies and danger of disease.

Sure looks it - maybe even a breeding ground for an epidemic that cripples many people, combatant or not. But hey - the stalling on the part of the US might buy some time for the British and Canadians and their allies to get everyone in position, as did the sudden movement of the border in New York State (and all for a pint! :D).

However as you say they do mean more hands for the defence. Also the men on the front line know very well what their fighting for with their families on the line. Especially for the Indians and any blacks in the region who could be treated pretty badly.

Ayup - maybe once the winter is over, things become very bloody.

Sounds like further back the Americans are intentionally or otherwise basically depopulating the land by taking so much of the food that people have to leave or starve. This would make it easier for them to occupy it later on and will cause problems for the Canadian authorities with a flood of refugees in mid-winter.

Ah, the old-fashioned scorched-earth policy. Yea, that's probably going to create problems in the long run for the duration of the war. If the US wins, then - excuse me for my Godwinning - it would basically create lebensraum for the Americans. I think that is what's on the minds of the British/Canadian strategists, and thus the strategists are making sure that doesn't happen.

What is going to be the American approach when attacks on supply lines start occurring? If they just threaten/attack the nearest village/settlement they could well attack people totally innocent and drive more to take up arms against them. I fear this is going to be very bloody and brutal.

Like I said earlier -

I see, Daði, but I think that there are going to be areas of logistics where the US is either:

*Overconfident
*Underprepared/under-estimated
*Did not take into account/Did not do the research - this latter point is even more so in the case of *New England

In other words, despite the near-perfect logistics, there's probably some flaw in their thinking that could be easily exploited.

Considering the amount of warfare between the War of 1812 and this one is pretty light on the side of Americans, I could assuming something a bit old-fashioned that wouldn't work this time. Of course, that's probably an over-estimation.

Given that there are more people in a lot of the frontier forts they will run out of food more quickly than planned but probably too late for the Americans.

Hmm, it could turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the defenders of the forts. If the forts run out of food very quickly, to the point where it's too late for the Americans, it could only serve to hamper the Americans' efforts.

The other approach that the Americans could try, but is probably unlikely given the political stance of their leaders, is to try and come to terms with some of the defenders. [Whether they would be believed if they offered to allow the Indians to live there peacefully is a moot point however but could try making some thing its a better bet than having their families in a war zone, especially considering their fate when any forts are stormed.]

I think this could be the effective strategy for New England on the American side - however, given that both countries have completely diverged, that would not sit well in Worcester.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing developments. I think the Americans are going to suffer increasingly problems as the resistance organises and their advance lengthens their supply lines. However glad I'm not one of the people in the besieged forts or occupied villages/towns.

Steve

I agree with you on this, wholeheartedly. Can't wait to see how this develops.
 
Ending being a British/Canadian Reconquista? ;)



So it's a case of a wood structure reinforced by stone/concrete? Interesting - I would've assumed that the buildings would have been all-stone.

Err.. no. I suspect that most of the sheds, warehouses, barracks etc. would be wood, but there might well be stone/concrete buildings involved (something fireproof to hold your gunpowder, for instance). I could imagine the barracks starting as wood, but gradually being replaced by stone.

I'm not sure exactly how the outside fortifications are built, but there will be lots of stone, lots of dirt to protect the stone, etc.
 
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