Can Portugal Stay Part of Spain?

Since 1580 until 1640 Portugal was part of Spain. It is possible that union contiues longer maybe even 20th century? If this is possible how that effect future of Brazil and colonization of Africa? What other countries say when Spain has nearly whole South America?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I'm not quite sure but at the time it seems to have been seen as moderately miraculous: in the little annals section of La Rochefoucauld's Maxims, there seems to have been this impression that the portuguese revolt was mainly the duke of Braganza, his secretary, and a very small cadre of portugese nobles who more or less opportunistically went in during a moment of weakness of the Spanish crown: I'm not sure how true this is but this was at least the impressions of a commenter of the time.

Given the stories that went on about what happened in Habsburg Portugal, it's a bit hard not to think a lot of it may have been things that fell udner the Leyenda Negra (but the french and english were very eager to report them - edit).
 
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Portugal

England and possibly France would have supported Portuguese rebels. I recall that the English were especially jealous of Spain's colonial power.
 
They were double lucky, if either the Aragonese rebellion ends faster or they do not secure Pope´s ( tacit ) help the Portugese could loose, badly.

They would probably rebel later ... maybe in the War of Spanish Succession they support the Archduke Charles? talk about an even more complicated war ...
 

archaeogeek

Banned
They were double lucky, if either the Aragonese rebellion ends faster or they do not secure Pope´s ( tacit ) help the Portugese could loose, badly.

They would probably rebel later ... maybe in the War of Spanish Succession they support the Archduke Charles? talk about an even more complicated war ...

The War of Spanish Succession would be even more desperate as well: trying to keep a single king off the thrones of France, Spain and Portugal, with the massive colonies implied, would probably be even more imperative to avoid a latin superpower.
 

raamses66

Banned
Well,they would have stayed united if spain wasn't so weakened beacuse of the war with basically all western europe.I don't think it would affect so much the colonies though.Maybe some trading post remained in spanish hands untill the 20th century but all in all the otl portoguese colonies would be indepndent much more earlier (brazil in the 1800s during napoleon's invasion and the african colonies in the 1950-1970 togheter with the rest of the spanish colonies.
 
Well,they would have stayed united if spain wasn't so weakened beacuse of the war with basically all western europe.I don't think it would affect so much the colonies though.Maybe some trading post remained in spanish hands untill the 20th century but all in all the otl portoguese colonies would be indepndent much more earlier (brazil in the 1800s during napoleon's invasion and the african colonies in the 1950-1970 togheter with the rest of the spanish colonies.
Eh? Napoleon would still arise if Portugal was just a region in Spain after 1580?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Yes,mnapoleon had arised whitout connection to spain so i don't see how it will prevent napoleon from arising.

Napoleon did arise in connection to Spain: he arose in connection to a world where the house of Bourbon does not have a single king sitting on a throne ruling everything from the Rhine to Lisbon along with most of Italy, or ruling the Americas from the Tierra del Fuego to the northern border of California, let alone this everything incuding Brazil. A lot of butterflies can happen if a) Spain is stronger and b) France is stronger, especially since as of 1640 it's almost too late to butterfly away the war of spanish succession short of everyone else in Europe committing political suicide and saying "thank you, hit me one more time please" to Phillip V of Spain and VI of France. Or a lucky child, but that's a bit of a Scriptor ex Machina.

Similarly Napoleon arose in a France that went bankrupt after fighting for the independence of the US. This also involved Spain: in fact it involved Spain even in the 7yw which gave rise to the resentment against Britain in the first place, as they lost Louisiana then and Spain didn't really give a damn about it.
 
Yes,mnapoleon had arised whitout connection to spain so i don't see how it will prevent napoleon from arising.
But Spain had an enormous influence on French politics, so the conditions that made it possible for Napoleon to rise through the ranks will be different. This is of course assuming the birth of Napoleon wouldn't be butterflied away, which it would.
 
Portugal was in personal union with the other crowns of Iberia, it was not an unitary kingdom. We are neither talking about nation-states here. Problems begun when it was percieved by some portuguese sectors, with reason or without it, that portuguese affairs were being decided outside Portugal too often and too many privileges and power positions were going to non-portuguese. Anyway, if Portugal stays under the spanish Habsburgs either because the rebellion is crushed or because Philip IV (or better said, Olivares) has more sensible politics regarding Portugal, it will be still under a poli-synodal system. Thus, Portuguese colonial affairs will be ruled mainly from Lisbon and Castilian colonial affairs will be ruled mainly from Madrid. Of course, we can expect more cooperation between the two kingdoms, specially regarding missionary efforts as seen in OTL during the union, and the frontier conflicts seen in OTL wouldn't happen. The important divergences in the overseas in comporation to OTL will start, in my opinion, if we asume a certain degree of divergence with OTL and we have still a War of Spanish Succession and it ends with Portugal supporting the lossing candidate, but it's difficult to know who will they support in this scenario because in OTL the support for both candidates was due mainly to cojunctural interests since both candidates promised mostly the same things to the Cortes of the differents kingdoms. If portuguese particularities, laws and privileges are abolished as in OTL in Aragon, due to ATL War of Succession or whatever other reason, then we will probably see different patterns in the colonial rule and expansion after this moment.

Cheers.
 

raamses66

Banned
Napoleon did arise in connection to Spain: he arose in connection to a world where the house of Bourbon does not have a single king sitting on a throne ruling everything from the Rhine to Lisbon along with most of Italy, or ruling the Americas from the Tierra del Fuego to the northern border of California, let alone this everything incuding Brazil. A lot of butterflies can happen if a) Spain is stronger and b) France is stronger, especially since as of 1640 it's almost too late to butterfly away the war of spanish succession short of everyone else in Europe committing political suicide and saying "thank you, hit me one more time please" to Phillip V of Spain and VI of France. Or a lucky child, but that's a bit of a Scriptor ex Machina.

Similarly Napoleon arose in a France that went bankrupt after fighting for the independence of the US. This also involved Spain: in fact it involved Spain even in the 7yw which gave rise to the resentment against Britain in the first place, as they lost Louisiana then and Spain didn't really give a damn about it.
There was an agreement explicitly forbeeding the union of the thrones of france and spain so that event would be considered as asb.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
There was an agreement explicitly forbeeding the union of the thrones of france and spain so that event would be considered as asb.

There was no such agreement prior to the war, it only existed because of the treaty of Utrecht which stopped the French defeat that had started to turn into a draw from turning into a "victory at war, defeat at peace" for the alliance, and had either branch of the house of Bourbon gone extinct, you can sure bet the other would have had enough supporters back in France or Spain to do a rematch. Or they'd just have figured out a way to maintain the fiction by having another sub-branch on the Spanish throne.
 
There was an agreement explicitly forbeeding the union of the thrones of france and spain so that event would be considered as asb.

Even in the unlikely case of everything in France happens as in OTL and Napoleon still arises, all the odds are against a Peninslular War. Remember, the excuse to introduce french troops in Spain was the invasion of Portugal. Even if TTL Spain and TTL France end in different sides during the napoleonic wars, you don't cross the Pyrenees happily if they don't open the doors to you from the other side.

On the other hand, with Portugal directly implied in the fight and being part of the prize in this hypothetical SWS, the development and result of the war could be very different, as the clauses imposed and/or accepted by the winner in the peace treaty.
 

raamses66

Banned
Even in the unlikely case of everything in France happens as in OTL and Napoleon still arises, all the odds are against a Peninslular War. Remember, the excuse to introduce french troops in Spain was the invasion of Portugal. Even if TTL Spain and TTL France end in different sides during the napoleonic wars, you don't cross the Pyrenees happily if they don't open the doors to you from the other side.

On the other hand, with Portugal directly implied in the fight and being part of the prize in this hypothetical SWS, the development and result of the war could be very different, as the clauses imposed and/or accepted by the winner in the peace treaty.
Yes,but i don't see portugal at the spanish hands so long anyway.Eventually nationalism will arise (naturally enough) and then spain will have quite a time maintain order in portugal which will probably cost them troops and money and will open a door for other powers intervention.
 
Yes,but i don't see portugal at the spanish hands so long anyway.Eventually nationalism will arise (naturally enough) and then spain will have quite a time maintain order in portugal which will probably cost them troops and money and will open a door for other powers intervention.

Nationalism in pre-napoleonic times?
 

raamses66

Banned
Nationalism in pre-napoleonic times?

Well,not nationalism as an organised movements.But nationalism as a general concept was there since the creation of states.Otherwise why people would have been drive by a desire to preserve they are own culture started to rebel against government who brough great economical and technological development to their area?
 
Well,not nationalism as an organised movements.But nationalism as a general concept was there since the creation of states.Otherwise why people would have been drive by a desire to preserve they are own culture started to rebel against government who brough great economical and technological development to their area?
Because in general, Early Modern Governments demanded a LOT more from their populations and people quite naturally resented having more demands placed on them. The majority of people were rural and they certainly didn't see a lot of gain from these governments.
 

raamses66

Banned
Because in general, Early Modern Governments demanded a LOT more from their populations and people quite naturally resented having more demands placed on them. The majority of people were rural and they certainly didn't see a lot of gain from these governments.

Yep,and that's how national identities had formed.That's the basis of our modern nationalism.
 
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