Can Hitler get a negotiated peace?
- Thread starter Gremlin
- Start date
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Not go to war with Russia. Keep on bombing British airfields and radar installations. Start or step up the Battle of the Atlantic. Eschew war with America, offer Britain peace
Gremlin
Banned
Perhaps he signs a peace with France - taking back the provinces lost in Versailles and capping their military, annex Luxembourg outright, Protectorate over Belgium, Holland and Norway as an interim measure with restored independence for those countries when a peace with UK is signed?
Certainly not after the Teheran conference, in Nov 1943. Before that, it is open to doubt and suspects. The Germans were talking with the Americans in Ankara and in Berne, and with the Russians in Stockholm. It was pretty much touch and go. If Roosvelt came to the conclusion that the Pacific theatre required more efforts, or if Stalin got convinced that he'd have to pay the brunt of the price to defeat the Germans....
Gremlin
Banned
but I'm talking specifically the time period after the fall of France. Just supposing Germany took back Alsace + Lorraine but no other territory in the west with possible transit and basing rights in the Benelux and Norwegian regions. What could the UK do if Germany sorted out a unilateral peace?
Gremlin said:
As I recall, Germany only properly annexed Alsace-Lorraine and the Netherlands; Belgium had a puppet government and the rest of non-Vichy France was suppossed to be returned once Britain was out of the war. Hitler did sign a treaty with France, the Free French just refused to acknowledge said treaty, and Britain responded by attacking the French Navy.
If Germany wants to force Britain into negotiations, they need something to bargain with. Though it is widely held on this forum that Sealion would not have worked as it was planned, Britain will consider peace if they think there is a very real threat of invasion. Other possibilities for forcing Britain to peace are the aforementioned Dunkirk and Battle of Atlantic possibilities.
Max Sinister
Banned
Chengar Qordath said:
You mean Luxembourg. The Netherlands were under Wehrmacht occupation, with Seyß-Inquart as Reichskommissar, all parties except the Dutch nazis were forbidden. Eupen-Malmedy also returned to the Reich.
Just curious WI after signing a treaty with France the German forces just pulled out of France? Would this action not been seen by the international community that Germany just wanted to reverse the actions of the last war?
They pull out take every single useful piece of military equipment with them and return to Germany. Now the British have to fly out to Germany to do any damage, and Germany has an advantage in air power. Would that be enough to make the British public seen the war as pointless? Not many died and now the Germans have packed up.
They pull out take every single useful piece of military equipment with them and return to Germany. Now the British have to fly out to Germany to do any damage, and Germany has an advantage in air power. Would that be enough to make the British public seen the war as pointless? Not many died and now the Germans have packed up.
Chengar Qordath said:
Not correct. The Belgian Government was in exile in London. The King remained in Belgium, but refrained from any political activity.
It was an armistice, i.e. suspension of arms, not a treaty.
Withdraw from "Vichy France" & the French coastline. Withdraw from Holland & Belgium. Don't transport all the Jews East. Keep just the Alsace-Lorraine in the West. Give some flavor of home rule to the German half of Poland. DO NOT ATTACK THE USSR!!!!!!!!
Of course, since all of these are counter to Hitler's reasons for starting the war in the 1st place, the actual chances are ZERO.
Of course, since all of these are counter to Hitler's reasons for starting the war in the 1st place, the actual chances are ZERO.
benedict XVII said:
Max Sinister said:
*Sighs* This is what happens when I post from what I recall, rather than checking my facts before I put out an opinion...
Gremlin said:
You might think I am crazy, but what about a peace without annaxing Alsace and Lorraine?
Alsace and Lorraine are demilitarised and German Companies are allowed to Ex-Import tax-free into theese regions.
The result is a strong fashist Goverment in France, that gives up any claims on new terretory in Europe.
Instead it might even enter the war on the German side, to win back former colonies from the English taken centuries before. (unlikely, and not that important, nutrality is good enopugh)
In addition France might allow German Ships (millitary and civel)to use its ports.
And Now everthing looks fine for Barbarossa.
Hitler was willing to give up German (or Austrian) claims on mostly German populated Southern Tyrol to win Italy as an Ally.
So why shouldn't he do the same with France?
The british would probably keep on demanind a german withdrawal from Poland, too. That's why they declared war, nothing to do with France. And Hitler is never going to give up Poland after his biggest thriump, no way. The only way to make peace with UK was to make them see that they could not win, and Churchill was convinced he could win, sooner or later, as long has he had the support of USA.
Karlos said:
Yes but if his cabinet and even the king don't support him.... He will sue for peace.
Churchill or just about anyone won't sue for peace unless it is immediately or very soon after Dunkirk. (failed or otherwise) The longer it takes for a percieved German invasion attempt to be made, the more it becomes clear that such an attack is never going to arrive. (And if the attempt is made and is a complete catastrophe.. well peace is likely to be off the cards) Combat in the Med continues, but assuming Egypt (Well, Alexandria really) can hold, theres no obvious reason to accept anything overly costly and every reason to resist.
After all, Napoleon appeared somewhat invincible in about 1809-10 and everyone knows how that turned out.
Even if Britain did seriously consider an armistice drawing up a peace treaty would take time and Britain would be perfectly positioned to continue the war if Hitler does something stupid like invading Russia in the interim.
After all, Napoleon appeared somewhat invincible in about 1809-10 and everyone knows how that turned out.
Even if Britain did seriously consider an armistice drawing up a peace treaty would take time and Britain would be perfectly positioned to continue the war if Hitler does something stupid like invading Russia in the interim.
Gremlin
Banned
The situation is as it was, Churchill is in power the King is George and Dunkirk has been evacuated as IOTL.
but then,
Hitler wanting revenge for Versailles signs a new treaty with France at compiegne. Germany reverses the territorial losses - Alsace, Lorraine, Malmedy, Schwelsig (?) etc. He agrees to vacate his forces from France, Belgium, Netherlands and Norway, these countries sign Non-aggression pacts and agree to allow access to Wehrmacht troops if attacked by UK but are otherwise untouched and self-governing (with a strong fascist slant).
De Gaulle is still at large but how will he fare against this less trunacated France governed from Paris?
Netherlands will continue to export oil to Japan?
Hitler fearing another Lusitania reigns in his U-boats so no battle of the Atlantic. how does this effect US opinion?
Italy invades Eygpt. without so many forces comitted west can Hitler offer more support (direct and indirect)?
How can the UK defeat Hitler without violating the Neutrality of France, Belgium or Holland?
but then,
Hitler wanting revenge for Versailles signs a new treaty with France at compiegne. Germany reverses the territorial losses - Alsace, Lorraine, Malmedy, Schwelsig (?) etc. He agrees to vacate his forces from France, Belgium, Netherlands and Norway, these countries sign Non-aggression pacts and agree to allow access to Wehrmacht troops if attacked by UK but are otherwise untouched and self-governing (with a strong fascist slant).
De Gaulle is still at large but how will he fare against this less trunacated France governed from Paris?
Netherlands will continue to export oil to Japan?
Hitler fearing another Lusitania reigns in his U-boats so no battle of the Atlantic. how does this effect US opinion?
Italy invades Eygpt. without so many forces comitted west can Hitler offer more support (direct and indirect)?
How can the UK defeat Hitler without violating the Neutrality of France, Belgium or Holland?