Byzantine Empire converts to Islam

Mr.Wigglemunch

Mr.Wigglemunch

It is often discussed on this forum how the Eastern Roman Empire can avert, destroy or survive the expansion of Islam. Conversely threads often also pop up regarding how Roman religion can survive Christianity, or how other religions can take hold, e.g. Manichaeism.

I'm interested in the ability of Constantinople to co-opt, if you will, Islam in the same way Constantine did Christianity. How would this effect the empire? But also, how would this effect Islam? Would it become unrecognisable?

FYI I'm interested in as early a POD as possible but anything til 1453 is of interest.

A more particular question to get us going, could an early conversion change the dynamics of the Sunni Shia schism? Could the Byzantines exploit this?
 

Evil Crusader

Islam would certainly diverge hard, and the dynamics of the Sunni/Shi'a schism would too be affected.
The problem is that Islam is too closely tied to emnity of the Empire for it to be co-opted successfully, much like in the Sahih-al-Bukhari 7.
 

Karl der Große

Banned
ASB. The Byzantines tore each other to pieces and massacred and enslaved other Christians over minute variations in Biblical analysis, including the difference of one letter in a word.
 
Mr.Wigglemunch

Mr.Wigglemunch

Evil Crusader said:
Islam would certainly diverge hard, and the dynamics of the Sunni/Shi'a schism would too be affected.
The problem is that Islam is too closely tied to emnity of the Empire for it to be co-opted successfully, much like in the Sahih-al-Bukhari 7.
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That is a fascinating link, but I take from it Heraclius could have been swayed, it was those around him who were hostile?
 

Evil Crusader

Mr.Wigglemunch said:
That is a fascinating link, but I take from it Heraclius could have been swayed, it was those around him who were hostile?
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I believe scholarship doesn't see the events as even remotely factual, but the overall feel is much more akin to the experience of the poor soul who dared even just suggesting the switch to Islam.
And that is before the invasions. The only way to have an Islamic Roman Empire is through external means.
 
Mr.Wigglemunch

Mr.Wigglemunch

Evil Crusader said:
I believe scholarship doesn't see the events as even remotely factual, but the overall feel is much more akin to the experience of the poor soul who dared even just suggesting the switch to Islam.
And that is before the invasions. The only way to have an Islamic Roman Empire is through external means.
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Am I right in thinking this is for a few reasons. A) Christianity unlike the Roman polytheistic religion before it is a relatively homogeneous religion, B) It is a proselytising religion, C) It is the state religion and more importantly it is centralised, and lastly D) Islam is considered heretical to Christianity.

All issues Christianity, despite periods of oppression, didn't have to contend with (relatively, at least).
 

Evil Crusader

Mr.Wigglemunch said:
Am I right in thinking this is for a few reasons. A) Christianity unlike the Roman polytheistic religion before it is a relatively homogeneous religion, B) It is a proselytising religion, C) It is the state religion and more importantly it is centralised, and lastly D) Islam is considered heretical to Christianity.

All issues Christianity, despite periods of oppression, didn't have to contend with (relatively, at least).
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D and, partially, C, aren't that true.
I'd go with: A) before the Arab conquests, there is no reason for the Empire to change religion. B) after, there is reason, but the religion also is associated with a mortal enemy. C) regardless of those, the Empire is far too invested in its religious identity.
 

Silver01

Mr.Wigglemunch said:
if you will, Islam in the same way Constantine did Christianity. How would this effect the empire? But also, how would this effect Islam? Would it become unrecognisable?
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Constantine did not make chirstianity the official religion of rome he just heavily promoted it was not until decades later that it was chosen and while many romans saw chirstianity as bad there was not a christian state trying to conquer them like the muslims.

If anything islam was more like what Shapur II and other sassanid kings saw it as the faith of the enemy.
 

Qastiel

Christianity doesn’t tolerate other universalist religions within their realms in this time period (and much of history). The same path to power within a state that Christianity uses, it shuts down in its wake.

You’d need a Byzantine Emperor that converts as a general makes an alliance with a foreign Islamic army. Christian realms don’t tolerate other proselytising religions.

Even Islamic realms which were more tolerant of other religions than Christianity was in this period forbade Muslims from converting to Christianity.
 
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extraterrestris

Let's have the Empire exist continuously into the Industrial Age and secularize along the lines of other traditionally Christian societies. There are multiple PODs to get this done. In the Middle Ages Christianity would just have crushed any competition in gestation. In the Industrial Age most Romans either stop caring much about traditional religion or consciously abandon it. Some experiment with Roman or Hellenic neopaganism but this stuff never gains much traction. Then, in an alternate 21st century (technologically, not necessarily chronologically, speaking), a catastrophe leads to a lot of people longing for copium. It could be a pandemic or a world war that leads to a collapse of global supply chains and hence mass impoverishment; it doesn't matter here. A well-organized group of Muslims seizes power and islamizes the Empire. By 2100 Islam is the official religion of the Eastern Roman Empire and embraced by a majority of the population.
 
Lothal

Lothal

the Eastern Roman Empire becoming Muslim would be a complete change in the sociopolitical ideology of the Empire; But from what we can learn from the Ottoman Empire things wouldnt fully change. the basic concepts of one god, one emperor, one faith with deviance from the state religion representing disobedience from the state itself are easily adaptable. The Emperor would obviously take the the title of either Caliph or Imam but probably taking a position akin to the concept of the Imam in Shiism, recognizing himself as the representative of God on earth and instead of tasked with making the Kingdom of God on earth would instead be tasked with leading the Ummah of earth in Allah's name. We already know what to expect from visual arts as the Eastern Roman Empire went through two separate periods of Iconoclasm and the Umayyad's early period of architectural development borrowed extensively from Roman concepts ie the reuse of the Umayyad Mosque and other constructions such as the Dome of the Rock and the desert palaces constructed by the Umayyad Caliphs. Expect a shahada like the Shia shahada claiming allegiance to the "emperor" as an extra line.
 

Lalli

Not going to happen. Byzantine was very strongly Christian nation. If emperor decides convert to Islam, he will be ousted immediately. And if some groups would do that, army would crush them quickly.
 
Mr.Wigglemunch

Mr.Wigglemunch

So then, accepting the very minimal chances of Byzantine conversion without conquest I will take a different tact. Is it possible for Constantinople to ally with the Arabs against their age old enemy Persia early on under Heraclius (even in a minimal role considering exhaustion from the previous decades). Not only buying time but also providing some modicum of respect between the Byzantine and Arabs, thus allowing for some cultural interchange over the following period?
 

Evil Crusader

Mr.Wigglemunch said:
So then, accepting the very minimal chances of Byzantine conversion without conquest I will take a different tact. Is it possible for Constantinople to ally with the Arabs against their age old enemy Persia early on under Heraclius (even in a minimal role considering exhaustion from the previous decades). Not only buying time but also providing some modicum of respect between the Byzantine and Arabs, thus allowing for some cultural interchange over the following period?
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With a stiff Byzantine resistance even as Persia falls, that is possible, though the matter of eventual emnity remains, you've "just" made Byzantium stronger except, unless this Islam more immediately gets hijacked by Persian culture, it'll take a while for the Byzantines tò view them as a peer the way they did with the Sasanids.
 

PecuTheGreat

The most difficult thing here would be getting rid of the priesthood since Islam doesn't have a priesthood. Some of them would certainly easily move on to becoming Islamic jurists but most would be out of the job and would of course, resist any way they can. I guess getting rid of the power of the church and further centralize is also a good geo-political cause of such a move.
 
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