British create armoured personnel carriers in 1940s

[SCOUT 5249]

NOTE This is an offshoot from my previous threads and based off @Lord Wyclif image of a universal tank and APC. (Thank you the idea)

In early 1939 with war more than likely the British army had proposal as an experiment a new type of 'troop carrier' vehicle using a tank body without a turret as the basis.

Intrigued the first two vehicles are developed in months in two models the A14 and the A15.

The A14 uses the Bren gun carrier that has been lengthened and large enclosed box super structure with sloped front and carry ten men in its rear, for defence the troop carrier uses either the humble and dependable .303 Vickers in two position the hull and for the commander to use though this can be switched out for newer Browning either in .303, .50 or a 20mm cannon with 60 round drums there are ports allowing for infantry use their rifles within the vehicle.

The A15 uses the A9/A10 cruiser hull with a thicker armour of 25mm and a repositioned engine carries six troops, no firing ports and armed with 20mm cannon in a rotating turret.

The A14 is chosen while the A15 is given consideration. As a result the British fields two mechanized regiments by 1940.

How capable and valuable would troop carriers and mechanized be to the British army?
Would Britain's allies follow suit and build their own carriers?
Would the United States military accept troop carriers and mechanized infantry?
Could the troop carrier vehicle give way infantry fighting vehicle?
Would the axis copy this idea?

 

[SwampTiger]

You are considering a basic battle taxi. The US has the M2/3 half-track for this job. Other allies will either build their own (France), or buy from US/UK. The Heer had their own half-tracks. An IFV was conceived by the British.

Don't we have a recent thread on this subject?

Edit: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...doption-of-apcs-ifvs-in-or-before-ww2.465647/

 

[SCOUT 5249]

You are considering a basic battle taxi. The US has the M2/3 half-track for this job. Other allies will either build their own (France), or buy from US/UK. The Heer had their own half-tracks. An IFV was conceived by the British.

Don't we have a recent thread on this subject?

Edit: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...doption-of-apcs-ifvs-in-or-before-ww2.465647/

oh dear wasn't expecting that.

 

[Hammerbolt]

The french were working on APCs as well. In 1940 they had the Voiture blindée de chasseurs portés 38L, a combination tractor+armoured trailer. for a total of 12 troops, crew included. Production had started on the 39L, which would use a bigger tractor, dispensing with the trailer. They also had the P107 open top half track. And the germans had their own famous halftracks.

Everyone understood the need to help the infantry move faster and under protection.

 

[Triune Kingdom]

One thing I wonder about is British budget at the time OP has this APCs created. I mean one of the main problems British army faced in the interwar period was the constant lack of funds, which hampered them immensely. They can make the best APC the world has ever seen up to that period in time, but it that means nothing unless the Treasury is willing to fund it.

Also worth considering is the British military priorities at the time, where RN and RAF got a lot of money, with very little left over for the Army. I mean BEF went over to France in 1939 wearing WW1 vintage Service Dress, since there were shortages of 1937 Pattern Battle Dress, Lewis Guns substituted for Bren Guns, most of the trucks used were civilian vehicles pressed into military service...

In regards to APCs, I would still consider that Universal/Bren Carriers would be more then adequate for their needs in 1939, perhaps something along the lines of Loyd Carrier stretched out a bit to allow for entire section of 10 men to be carried.


EDIT: Frankly, to get anything like the APCs the OP specified, perhaps the best way to do something like that is for the British to realize/decide that they will be fighting a continental war alongside French against Germany. Just by doing so, would give British Army something to work towards to, instead of EMF tests coming to nothing, mechanization being done in sevwral different ways, and army being set up for colonial policing, not fighting a full scale European war.

The British Army with a clearly defined role, would perhaps allow for a Treasury strings to be loosened somewhat, allowing for a much larger and capable BEF to be deployed in France in 1939, with a clearly defined doctrine and aims. For all the faults the British army had during the WW2, it was still one of the most mechanized forces on Earth at the time, and if plans were made to fight a continental, full scale war much sooner then IOTL, who knows what form the BEF would take.

Now, do not expect British Panzer Divisions, but something along the lines of more rational tank to men ratio, clearly defined doctrine, etc. could be possible. Greater cooperation with the French before the war could be possible, if only on higher levels of command, so some ideas may cross over from one side to the other.

Chieftan over on YT recently did history and development of French, British and German armoured doctrines, and that is worth a look as well.

Lastly, get some of the guys over at your last thread, the one with Universal Tank, they seem to know what they are talking about, unlike me.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

To get adequate funds for the Army the government has to accept before 1939 that it will have to send an army to France if war comes. Preferably this should happen when Germany remilitarizes the Rhineland, but no later than the take over of Austria.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Britain came very close to developing an APC in 1928 with the Vickers Medium II Box Tank. Used as a command tank.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The Problem is that for every tank that you convert into an APC.....you lose a tank.

And Britain did not have enough tanks in the first 2 years of the war

Production of tanks including light tanks

1939 = 969
1940 = 1,399
1941 = 4,841
1942 = 8,611

Now this does not include production of the Universal carrier which the British built in their 10,000s

So if you were going to propose an armoured personnel carrier - I would simply double the size of the Lloyd carrier to 5+ tons so that it can carry 10 passengers - make it front engined with doors at the back with a 'hard top' and slightly thicker armour

The other option is to prise the treasury purse strings open a year / 18 months earlier and have a dedicated Kahn style* factory/s and expansion of the supporting industries that is building your chosen design of APC to the required numbers?


*A kahn style factory used large modern buildings with plenty of light and suitable electricity supply, using large numbers of single task machine tools - so that once a given machine tool is setup and calibrated etc a relatively unskilled worker can with very little training and supervision create that part or perform whatever task is required!

 

[SCOUT 5249]

Attention fixed the OP.

 

[StevoJH]

The downside being the large capital costs, and manpower requirements. Yes it’s good if you want to produce as much as you can as rapidly as possible.

But they don’t scale down very well.

 

[SCOUT 5249]

But would they work

 

[Riain]

But would they work

I doubt there's many great technical hurdles, if a 3/4 track can work as an APC in the late 30s then a full track APC most likely can too.

 

[SCOUT 5249]

So using converted tank chassis wouldn't be financial viable but the one using the carrier would work?

 

[Some Bloke]

Britain came very close to developing an APC in 1928 with the Vickers Medium II Box Tank. Used as a command tank.

Maybe if we go with the Royal Artilery continuing to tinker with SPGs after the EMF as a PoD and you could have this as the basis of an APG and an SPG with an 18 Pounder gun by the end of the 30s.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Having slept on it the other option is for the British to adopt the Vickers 6 ton as a 'cheap' AFV in the mid 30s and then as it is deemed obsolete and other factories are created to build coughtheuniversaltankmk1cough as the principle AFV the Vickers production line is dedicated to making an APC variant of the Vickers 6 tonner initially as an armoured command post / radio vehicle etc but in training some bright spark uses a couple of them as a 'APC's to confound the umpires.

 

[SCOUT 5249]

Having slept on it the other option is for the British to adopt the Vickers 6 ton as a 'cheap' AFV in the mid 30s and then as it is deemed obsolete and other factories are created to build coughtheuniversaltankmk1cough as the principle AFV the Vickers production line is dedicated to making an APC variant of the Vickers 6 tonner initially as an armoured command post / radio vehicle etc but in training some bright spark uses a couple of them as a 'APC's to confound the umpires.

That doesn't count as cheating.

 

[KillerT]

The 15mm BESA would be excellent choice for an early AIFV,

 

[SCOUT 5249]

The 15mm BESA would be excellent choice for an early AIFV,

Good against half tracks and panzer II and maybe panzer III if used in an ambush and hit the side.

 

[JennyB]

What about a halftrack based on the Universal Carrier, extending the load compartment all the way to the front and taking the engine out of it? What would be a good source for the front half?

 

[duckie]

What about a halftrack based on the Universal Carrier, extending the load compartment all the way to the front and taking the engine out of it? What would be a good source for the front half?

Well, just do as the germans did with the maultier. ford 3 ton truck front and the running gear of the carrier.