British Cars Rule!

[Mr.Bluenote]

I was wondering, being a bit of an anglophile and all, how would it be possible - with a PoD of no earlier that the summer of 1945 - that the British car industry had a role similar to that of Germany in OTL, so that in ATL British brands were superior and very well known, the car companies themselves busy buying failing German car makers, investing heavily in the USA and making strategic alliances world wide...

Give it go....

Best regards!

- Mr. B.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

Inventive car industry producing cars people actually wanted to buy and at costs that made them competitive; and less union agitation in the workplace during 1950s-70s.

We kick-started the German car industry by buying VWs in 1945/6 to equip the BOAR.

 

[Wozza]

The best chance for improving anything in the British economy would have been ROBOT, followed by same anti-trade union legislation
Thatcherism in the 50s without the pain

 

[Straha]

No offense but what is with everyone and post 1945 PODs? Seriously its too limiting. Mybe avoiding the depression helps?

 

[Kit]

The UK missed out big time in the 70s, due to economic crisis, union intransigance and managerial icompetence.

Much of the manufacturing automation breakthroughs, in terms of computer software and mechanisation, were actually made in the UK. Unfortunately, none of the developments were taken up and applied by UK car manufacturers, although they were eagerly bought/copied by foreign companies.

Another case of Britain inventing something and being totally unable to make money out of it. And I'd divide the blame pretty much equally between corporate management and the unions on this.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

Well, fighting by proxy for the mutual interests of the UK and the USA until late 1941 was rather costly. And there was that delightful post-war loan arrangement to kickstart the NHS and rebuilding. (Actually, I believe most of our dwindling gold reserves were shipped to Canada by the RN and guarded by Mounties.)

Post 1945 would be rather limited, but then again Germany and Japan (and latterly Korea) have done pretty well since that date and they were, in many ways, worse off than the UK.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

No offense but what is with everyone and post 1945 PODs? Seriously its too limiting. Mybe avoiding the depression helps?

None taken!

The reason I used 1945 as the earliest poD was because I genuienly wonder why the British car industry is in such dire straites. So by restricting people's imagination, so to say, I might be able to actually learn something from this!

Post 1945 would be rather limited, but then again Germany and Japan (and latterly Korea) have done pretty well since that date and they were, in many ways, worse off than the UK.

My point exactly, Nelson! Combine that with the fact that Aston Martin, Bentley, RR, Morgan, Lotus, Rover and what not basically are brand names and for most parts very good cars.

So what to do about this? Let's se, what if we have a Conservative victory in the General Elections of '45? Would that break the Unions later stranglehold and make more resources available for domestic consumers - I believe that Atlee tried to export his way out of Britains economic troubles - thus creating a more flexible, money rich and protected home marked? Perhaps combined with the British Armed Forces applying a strict buy home grown goods policy?

Best regards!

- B.

 

[Kit]

None taken!

The reason I used 1945 as the earliest poD was because I genuienly wonder why the British car industry is in such dire straites. So by restricting people's imagination, so to say, I might be able to actually learn something from this!


My point exactly, Nelson! Combine that with the fact that Aston Martin, Bentley, RR, Morgan, Lotus, Rover and what not basically are brand names and for most parts very good cars.

So what to do about this? Let's se, what if we have a Conservative victory in the General Elections of '45? Would that break the Unions later stranglehold and make more resources available for domestic consumers - I believe that Atlee tried to export his way out of Britains economic troubles - thus creating a more flexible, money rich and protected home marked? Perhaps combined with the British Armed Forces applying a strict buy home grown goods policy?

Best regards!

- B.

I would say that the POD needs to be earlier.

Even if the Conservatives won in 45, the main opposition would still be the labour party and they would still be as gung ho socialist as ever before. Granted, they may not have been able to be quite so able to initiate their own policies if they'd had to wait until the 50s, when the Conservatives had had the preceding few years to pre-set the agenda, but they would still have turned everything on its head.

I would say that the POD would need to be after WW1. If the socialists came into power then, the whole post war drama of decline could have been played out in the inter-war years, and by 1945 we could be politically in the 1980s!

 

[DMA]

I would have thought cars like the Mini were a world wide succeess, for the general population at least, whilst Rolls Royce & Bentley were the cars of the rich & shameless.

Yet to have even more popular British cars, doesn't require blaming unions, management, governments, etc, is essentially solving the problem. The problem is quality of a given product. If you have a product that the public doesn't want, they won't buy it. Pure & simple.

So the UK car manufactuers need designers who can give the public what they want. The Mini is an excellent example. Of course second guessing what the public wants in anything, let alone a car, is like crystal ball stuff. But, hey, welcome to the world of consumer products.

 

[Mr.Bluenote]

I would have thought cars like the Mini were a world wide succeess, for the general population at least, whilst Rolls Royce & Bentley were the cars of the rich & shameless.

Quite right, but my main interest was to see how one could make the British car industry and the manufacturers replace or be as successful as the German car industry in OTL, so that it would be British companies that invested heavily the world around and was a political power in their home country.

In that regard, I'm not sure that 1945 is too late, we might want to do something to keep British industry in good health for the upswing in the 60's to hit Britain, though. The German car industry only began to dominate truly at that time, didn't it?

But your points, DMA, about the Brits actually making models that people want to buy are very important and perhaps at the core of the matter.

Best regards!

- B.

 

[DMA]

Well I'd go as far as saying that the UK car industry probably wasn't that bad off in the 1960s. There's the Morris Minor, Mini, Jaguars, etc. It's really what comes afterwards in the 1970s. In fact you can probably say this about everything in the UK, not just cars, but somehow, even though they had the brains, they had the engineers, they had the trained tradesmen, their products just didn't appeal anymore. And that's across the board in any respects.

Whether it's because their designers & marketing people, just got the 1970s way of doing business completely wrong, which IMHO is their problem, but I think there's also a cultural issue as well to understand. In that respect I mean the "flower power" era. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that the UK got stuck in the 60s "flower power" era, whilst the rest of the world moved on.

As a result, designs that worked in the 60s as well as continuing to do business as if it was still the 60s, whilst everyone else moved on, well you're left behind as your competitors, not only offer products which the public actually now want, but even the way you market & do business is no longer competitive either. And it's things like these which means the British car industry got left behind - not really industrial relations, union power, or govt policies et al (although they have their part).

 

[Kit]

That comes back down to effective, professional management though.

Even in the 50s and 60s, marketing management theory and practice was sufficiently advanced that is was clear that to produce effective goods, you had to conduct research on your customers to find out what they thought of your products, what they thought of your competitors products, how they used them, and what they wanted. That information should then be transferred to your engineers and R&D department so they could make products that customers wanted.

The tragedy about British industry was that, even though the above principles were widely acknowledged as best practice, the UK management base was so uneducated, hide-bound, and insulated, it continued to follow its traditional ad hoc, amature, top-down, inflexible methods.

That didn't mean that the UK car industry didn't make cars people wanted - for example the mini or the Land Rover - but that it when it did so, it was more due to fluke, rather than planning.

 

[DMA]

That comes back down to effective, professional management though.

Even in the 50s and 60s, marketing management theory and practice was sufficiently advanced that is was clear that to produce effective goods, you had to conduct research on your customers to find out what they thought of your products, what they thought of your competitors products, how they used them, and what they wanted. That information should then be transferred to your engineers and R&D department so they could make products that customers wanted.

The tragedy about British industry was that, even though the above principles were widely acknowledged as best practice, the UK management base was so uneducated, hide-bound, and insulated, it continued to follow its traditional ad hoc, amature, top-down, inflexible methods.

That didn't mean that the UK car industry didn't make cars people wanted - for example the mini or the Land Rover - but that it when it did so, it was more due to fluke, rather than planning.

All of which is essentially what I was getting at. But to blaim Union power or aggressive government anti-union policy & all that is wrong. It really comes back to the fact that the designers/marketers didn't give the public what they wanted by & large. All the rest is simply the political blame game of either it's all the unions fault or the goverments fault. Now sure there's some of that, but essentially, come the 1970s & the British car industry simply can't give the comsumer what they wanted, whilst other manufacturers did.

Mind you it hasn't only been the UK car industry who's been in trouble since the 1970s. The American car industry has likewise been in trouble because of similar problems. Essentially he Germans, Japanese, & others, give the consumers what they want to varying degrees of success.

 

[Kit]

All of which is essentially what I was getting at. But to blaim Union power or aggressive government anti-union policy & all that is wrong. It really comes back to the fact that the designers/marketers didn't give the public what they wanted by & large. All the rest is simply the political blame game of either it's all the unions fault or the goverments fault. Now sure there's some of that, but essentially, come the 1970s & the British car industry simply can't give the comsumer what they wanted, whilst other manufacturers did.

Mind you it hasn't only been the UK car industry who's been in trouble since the 1970s. The American car industry has likewise been in trouble because of similar problems. Essentially he Germans, Japanese, & others, give the consumers what they want.

Oh I agree. It is ridiculous to blame either the government, unions or businesses for the mess. Each share part of the blame, but ultimately the reasons that they acted as they did, go back to social and economic development issues that often originate in the 19th century.

I've posted my explanation of this before - there are many factors that feed into it.

But basically it comes down to the fact that the Industrial Revolution happened in the UK and nowhere else. People often make the mistake of thinking that each country that industrialises has their own Industrial Revolution.

Not the case. Every single country (apart from the UK) industrialised bought their basic industrial base in, and then started (always with lots of government planning and support) contructing an industrial economy and society from that. That meant, as often as not, much interest and funding for professional management and business training - as those would be the people who would conducting all these radical changes.

In the UK, everything happened on an ad hoc basis. There was no plan, no training - things just happened - that's why we had the IR in the first place and the rest of the world didn't. The downside was that the ad hoc, amature, unplanned principles that had proven themselves so effective in the 19th century were carried over into the 20th, where they were not so effective. Even though some attempts were made my government and business to copy American and European methodologies, the legacy of the 19th century tended to hang around, at least until the 1970s.

 

[Alayta]

The English had lots of advantages in history due to them beeing an Island.
In order to become the world largest car-fabricant it is not the most favorable position.
to sell lots of cars meand to sell them cheap. The channel is an obstacle here.

But first of all, the english would have to get rid of the strange habit of driveing on the left side!!!!!!!!!

 

[gaijin]

Japan

Uhhhhhm Alayta,

You do realise that japan is also an island nation where people drive on the left side of the road????

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

That is all to do with differences in design between British and American horse carriages; I believe something to do with where the driver sat.

 

[Wozza]

Uhhhhhm Alayta,

You do realise that japan is also an island nation where people drive on the left side of the road????

I did not realise there was another country in the whole world that had reached that degree of civilization.

Of course one should not be surprised, what with the common predilection for tea, royalty and ritual

 

[gaijin]

Don't forget schooluniforms and sexual fetishes with previously mentioned school uniforms

 

[DocOrlando]

The UK is also not a nation of car drivers. It is a nation of train-riders, walkers and cyclists. That carless culture contributes to the national (and international) perceptions that limit the UK's expansion as a leading car exporter. In OTL, the UK is a nation of a small number of well-made cars owned by a dedicated few. In ATL, the UK needs to be a nation of ample drivers in order to create a branch of the British Automotive Industry devoted to churning out plentiful (but reliable) vehicles, a la Volkswagen, for a populace eager for personal transport.

This can't happen w/o a POD any later than 1215 AD, as it would demand a fundamental change in the development of the average Englishman that minimalizes his predisposition for personal sacrifice in service to neighbor, country and crown.