Bourbon England
- Thread starter kasumigenx
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Revolutionary Todyo
Banned
Depends, you need to have a war with France and Britain, the war needs to have a situation where the French aren't being threatened by a land power like Prussia or Austria, then you need a navy capable of beating the RN, and then you'll need a successfull invasion.
Get all that in a TL and you'll do fine.
Get all that in a TL and you'll do fine.
Disagree. I don't think that in this era and without Napoleon and Napoleonic influence that conquering a country, especially one like England, one of Europe's most powerful states, would be followed by placing a Bourbon prince on the throne. It just didn't happen between the most powerful states and there's no way the English would accept it. You'd have to have the French win a series of wars, again and again and again and again, to carve away the entire empire and then to take away England's political freedom before replacing their King.
IMO dynastic inheritance and marriage politics is the only way this could happen.
If you want to have a Bourbon England by marriage/heritage, you could maybe achieve this by having England support the claim of Henry IV to the french throne.
If Henry is backed by non-catholic power he may not convert to Catholicism. Wining the war and becoming king would surely be harder for him if he remains a Huguenot, but let's assume he still manages it thanks to english support.
A huguenot France would probably have better relations with England and ally with them against Spain. Such an alliance could lead to intermarriage between the Bourbon and the Stuarts, which could lead to a english branch of the Bourbons.
It's a bit sketchy, but it's been a while since I read about that era of european history.
If Henry is backed by non-catholic power he may not convert to Catholicism. Wining the war and becoming king would surely be harder for him if he remains a Huguenot, but let's assume he still manages it thanks to english support.
A huguenot France would probably have better relations with England and ally with them against Spain. Such an alliance could lead to intermarriage between the Bourbon and the Stuarts, which could lead to a english branch of the Bourbons.
It's a bit sketchy, but it's been a while since I read about that era of european history.
Revolutionary Todyo
Banned
Well I've seen a few scenarios about the Spanish Armada where the Infanta is made Queen of England. She gest overthrown, but its just a thought.
But your point on marriage politics. What about Charles II? He lived in France during the Commonwealth years and was a notorious womaniser, I could easily see him getting "involved" with the relations of the Bourbon Court. Something could come up from there.
Philip had a claim to the throne, however. It was a tenuous one, though arguably stronger when interpreted under Castilian law. His argument was that, as husband to a dead Queen, her claim passed to him and he ceded it to his daughter. The French had absolutely no claim to England. People in this day knew how to use the most tenuous idea to fabricate a claim, but people knew that when there was no feasible claim (i.e. the French position) that they couldn't get away with just muscling in. Besides, a Bourbon prince would only ensure pro-French control of England for a generation or two. After that, politics tended to diverge anyway. It would be inherently risky.
It's possible, moreso IMO than the above idea. However, he would need to go a step beyond womanising to make it work. An illegitimate child would never be acceptable, except in exceptional circumstances - i.e. how his illegitimate Protestant son almost won popular support for the simple factor of not being Catholic when James II was coming to the throne. With a Bourbon princess, the child isn't likely to be Protestant. Also, the French mistress thing was interestingly hypocritical. While the French were happy to recognise and even encourage the practice of mistresses, and even gave the royal mistress an official position in court, if a princess were to have an affair it would be regarded as a matter of huge shame to her.
You'd have to have them get married, I think. And if that were to happen it might affect his credentials for returning to England. Also, the child wouldn't actually be of the Bourbon dynasty.
I guess you could play around with the Glorious Revolution. Say Charles' daughters aren't brought up so Protestant, or maybe Charles dies early and James forces them to marry Protestant, then if he dies without a son etc then Princess Mary could take the throne married to, say, a Duke of Orleans. The English would probably resist but they could be defeated. It would, of course, screw up English religion completely, but then I think any Bourbon King of England would try to go uber-Catholic.
Elizabeth is not the Virgin Queen...
Let here marry Antoine de Bourbon or his brother Louis if you don't want to mess things up so mu8ch in France...
probably butterflies away a Bourbon France , but perhaps not.
Let here marry Antoine de Bourbon or his brother Louis if you don't want to mess things up so mu8ch in France...
probably butterflies away a Bourbon France , but perhaps not.
the Jacobite succession after the death of Henry IX pasted to the line of Henrietta Anne Duchess of Orléans
Henrietta Anne had two daughters, Marie Louise d'Orléans(wife of King Charles II of Spain) and Anne Marie d'Orléans (wife of Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia)
Anne Marie d'Orléans had four children, Maria Adelaide(Wife of Louis de France, Duke of Burgundy, Mother of Louis XV), Maria Luisa Gabrielle(Wife of Philip V of Spain, Mother of Louis I of Spain and Ferdinand VI of Spain) sadly the Jacobite line got grabbed by Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia's grandson Charles Emmanuel IV
Henrietta Anne had two daughters, Marie Louise d'Orléans(wife of King Charles II of Spain) and Anne Marie d'Orléans (wife of Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia)
Anne Marie d'Orléans had four children, Maria Adelaide(Wife of Louis de France, Duke of Burgundy, Mother of Louis XV), Maria Luisa Gabrielle(Wife of Philip V of Spain, Mother of Louis I of Spain and Ferdinand VI of Spain) sadly the Jacobite line got grabbed by Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia's grandson Charles Emmanuel IV
Revolutionary Todyo
Banned
Gonzagas idea will probably hold the most water in this. It's a familiar idea and easily researchable, also you can add your own spin to it (I like the idea of a more European Britain).
AuroraBorealis. Your idea could work, but you'd need Elizabeth to have less balls (so to speak). She loved her independance from men, hence she chose her life without sex.
AuroraBorealis. Your idea could work, but you'd need Elizabeth to have less balls (so to speak). She loved her independance from men, hence she chose her life without sex.
Well the beginning of her reign was anything but stable... Indeed she was often urged to marry to secure her throne. Anjou, following the disasterous war with Scotland. So lets assume the assassination of Walsingham is a success. He therefore doesn't intercede with Marie de Guise and she persists on the throne in Scotland ( at least in charge of affairs anyways) A protestant French duke does not seem so unreasonable in that case. Indeed Weakening the house of Guise would seem in her interest then. Of course there would be the whole matter of a Catholic sponsored usurpation of her throne to contend with led by Norfolk.
it would probably mean having to defeat them in the field. but provided her forces do, it would definitely get you a Bourbon England. but not necessarily a Bourbon France.
Revolutionary Todyo
Banned
Well it is about a Bourbon England so that could work, though lack of Bourban France would definately butterfly any possible time lines to shit. Spanish war of succession to name one.
Well if its Bourbon - Conde instead of Bourbon then you might still get Henry of Navarre and a marriage to Marguerite Valois. But it will butterfly indeed the French wars of religion, as if Louis and Elizabeth do defeat Norfolk and stem a Catholic insurrection they will then be able to send some measure of support for their nephew Henry. Mind you the Valois kings may not entertain a match with Henry if he has an uncle on the English throne already. If no marriage to Marguerite then Henry may strengthen his position with the protestants of the south instead, and France is split into a Guise dominated Catholic North and a Bourbon Protestant south in Aquitaine, Gascogne, French Navarre and Bourbonnais/Auvergne
Let's say rather, formal bonds.
The "Virgin" queen may well have been anything but (although if she wasn't, she was certainly very careful).Let's say rather, formal bonds.
She does not have to be careful, forgive me for saying this, but perhaps she was infertile.
Revolutionary Todyo
Banned
Forgiven, you can't insult monarchs who died 400 years ago, just weird people who feel offended on their behalf.
As for the infertility. Maybe, I guess we'll never know.
Well, she was 'careful' in lots of ways. While she had court favourites that many people think she slept with, she was careful to never let them think they could control her or marry her. Any that tried to assume more power than she was prepared to let them have got dumped. She was careful to maintain plausible deniability. IF she slept with them (which isn't proven, AFAIK), she maintained a public face on the relationship that denied they were lovers.
It seems entirely consistent with her character that she insist on non-reproductive means of 'entertainment', whether that involved condoms, or non 'Tab A in Slot B' methods.
And of course, as you say, she may have been infertile, for any of a number of reasons.