Bismarck makes it to France. What do the Germans do with her?

ric350

Let’s say the second Swordfish attack on Bismarck (evening of May 26?) did not score any hits, and Bismarck was able to make it to Saint-Nazaire. What would the Germans do now? Would she remain a “threat in place” like Tirpitz, or would the Germans try another sortie? Would the British attempt a similar Saint-Nazaire commando raid to try and trap her in place, or would the Germans have too many forces there to protect her?

ric350
 

sparky42

I’d imagine the RAF is order to hit the port with everything they can for as long as it takes while the Home Fleet is held ready for any attempted breakout.
 

Alanith

I'd imagine she takes part in the Channel Dash and with the same general success, and then spends the rest of the war in Norway with her sister.
 

sparky42

Alanith said:
Given how generally ineffective they were in the first place you'd need significant alterations for them to have the slightest chance of doing something.
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Agreed, however with Bismark and the Twins together that's a significant raiding force now on the French coast, much more than just the twins alone, so you'd have to assume changes in British deployments.
 
tonycat77

tonycat77

Banned
Massive butterflies for the Pacific.
I wonder if it would doctrinally change things?, Bismarck was the first ship to be decisively crippled by air attacks.
 
Count of Crisco

Count of Crisco

Well aside from the British potentially rethinking their torpedo strike doctrine, depending on how they fail significant changes could happen or they could conclude their planes were just out of position and make few changes, I would think we would see major shifts in the RN deployment around France. As well as major RAF attempts to sink her. I could see the ship becoming the white whale for the RN as they use every dirty trick in their book to put her down.
 

Grand Admiral Thrawn

Donor
David Floyd said:
Massive butterflies for the Pacific? I doubt it. Remind me how many RN BBs engaged the IJN?
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Prince of Wales and Renown not going east is already a massive butterfly. And if Somerville's fleet doesn't go east, the Mediterranean may lean Allied quicker. Only 2 US BBs engaged the IJN, but more were deployed. And deployments can pay off.
 

David Floyd

Grand Admiral Thrawn said:
Prince of Wales and Renown not going east is already a massive butterfly. And if Somerville's fleet doesn't go east, the Mediterranean may lean Allied quicker. Only 2 US BBs engaged the IJN, but more were deployed. And deployments can pay off.
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Ah. Yes, I agree. I was not thinking in that direction, but more in terms of how the British Pacific Fleet substantially contributed.
 

ric350

Count of Crisco said:
Well aside from the British potentially rethinking their torpedo strike doctrine, depending on how they fail significant changes could happen or they could conclude their planes were just out of position and make few changes, I would think we would see major shifts in the RN deployment around France.
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Well that last attack was in failing light, and if they hadn’t accidentally attacked the Sheffield earlier, they might have still been armed with the magnetic torpedoes which were not reliable. So a failed strike might have been written off as bad luck.

tonycat77 said:
Bismarck was the first ship to be decisively crippled by air attacks.
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I think the Italians at Taranto would disagree.😉 Though I take your point, of a capital ship underway (albeit damaged). Still that hit to the rudder was a “golden BB”, similar to the hit that later doomed PoW.

ric350
 
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Naval Aviation Fan

ric350 said:
Let’s say the second Swordfish attack on Bismarck (evening of May 26?) did not score any hits, and Bismarck was able to make it to Saint-Nazaire. What would the Germans do now? Would she remain a “threat in place” like Tirpitz, or would the Germans try another sortie? Would the British attempt a similar Saint-Nazaire commando raid to try and trap her in place, or would the Germans have too many forces there to protect her?

ric350
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Well, I'd have to ask what Hitler, in this altered situation, now thinks of the Kriegsmarine? If Bismarck sinks Hood and lives to fight another day, I could see Goring forced to devote a couple hundred extra fighters to the aerial defenses over and above OTL, as well as the AA and AAA forces being unrivalled anywhere in Nazi occupied Europe, Berlin included.

That being the case, I could see the Kriegsmarine actually getting and keeping the twins and Bismarck into operational shape, with an occasional convoy getting wiped out, and many others scattering in the face of a concerted attack.

The real question to me would be, what losses would the British be willing to sustain, in order to sink the ships in port? If the Luftwaffe is ordered to protect the Kriegsmarine bases/ships at all costs, and if the anti-aircraft batteries and dedicated fighter forces are beefed up like I suppose they would be, that cost could be quite high indeed.
 

Alanith

Once her repairs from the raid are made, I can see her being shifted to Brest, if nothing else so the KM can keep all its eggs in one heavily defended basket. Or maybe the Twins are shifted south to link up with her.
 
McPherson

McPherson

Banned
tonycat77 said:
Massive butterflies for the Pacific.
I wonder if it would doctrinally change things?, Bismarck was the first ship to be decisively crippled by air attacks.
Click to expand...

Grand Admiral Thrawn said:
Prince of Wales and Renown not going east is already a massive butterfly. And if Somerville's fleet doesn't go east, the Mediterranean may lean Allied quicker. Only 2 US BBs engaged the IJN, but more were deployed. And deployments can pay off.
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1. MOO.
2. There was no way the British would not implement the Singapore Bastion Defense. That plan meant battleships and with the British Eastern Command I can almost guarantee sunk British battleships.
3. By count in direct gun combat (2nd Battle of Guadalcanal and Surigao Strait.) I can suggest 4 to 8 US battleships engaged.
Naval Aviation Fan said:
Well, I'd have to ask what Hitler, in this altered situation, now thinks of the Kriegsmarine? If Bismarck sinks Hood and lives to fight another day, I could see Goring forced to devote a couple hundred extra fighters to the aerial defenses over and above OTL, as well as the AA and AAA forces being unrivalled anywhere in Nazi occupied Europe, Berlin included.
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Could be.
Naval Aviation Fan said:
That being the case, I could see the Kriegsmarine actually getting and keeping the twins and Bismarck into operational shape, with an occasional convoy getting wiped out, and many others scattering in the face of a concerted attack.
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Until Pound is replaced and somebody figures out how to convoy the PQs properly?
Naval Aviation Fan said:
The real question to me would be, what losses would the British be willing to sustain, in order to sink the ships in port? If the Luftwaffe is ordered to protect the Kriegsmarine bases/ships at all costs, and if the anti-aircraft batteries and dedicated fighter forces are beefed up like I suppose they would be, that cost could be quite high indeed.
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They tried some desperate measures to get Tirpitz. I think this indicates what the S and G and B and T together would impel.
 
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