Beaching capital ships at Normandy

There were a number of basically redundant battleships of the US, France and UK that were being used for target ships. Some of these had main batteries of calibres that were in little use and a drain on logistics. Beach them at low tide and take them back out if desired at high tide. Or just run them in very close and anchor them. AT guns will do little more than make splash marks on the armor. 6" guns pay penetrate some areas of low armor protection. An anchored battleshp is a sitting target but is a very stable gun platform.

The French battleship Courbet had guns and boilers removed as was sunk on the Mulberry. The Lorraine was sunk as a target ship after the war. Both had 12" guns and fairly thick armor
 
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I guess I just don't understand why you need to beach these vessels instead of just having them be very close? Why is a beached heavy cruiser with 8" guns better than one that's floating? Accuracy?

Amen

I used to be paid to plan amphibious landings, more specifically the fire support. From that perspective this looks like a complete waste of effort. There would be zero advantage in providing fire support to the first couple hours of the assault. None.

The destroyers that came in close after 08:30 still had problems identifying the enemy bunkers that were in defilaide & camoflaged. Even after two hours of rising tide they were still 1,200+ meters from the targets. A deep draft ship is going to beach 2,000+ meters off the beach at 06:30. At that range the residual rain haze & prelanding bombardment smoke/dust are going to make it next to impossible to spot exposed targets. Those in defilaide would have to spotted from far down the beach, so the range could easily be 3,000 meters.

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There's other ways to improve performance. Have a less complicated plan so that one or two landing craft off the mark doesn't throw the whole plan off and objectives based on targets of opportunity instead. Release the DD tanks closer so they don't get flooded. Don't tell the bombers to drop "a few seconds later" so the bombs actually hit the beach. Actually bombard with more than a handful of ships for hours and hours on end. ....

That last may have been the most sure. I've seen reasons for not starting the bombardment earlier. Leaving those aside:

1. Tactical suprise was lost when the airborne drop started at 01:30. If the German accounts are correct the alarm went out shortly after the paras started dropping. Around 02:00, depending on the HQ, orders for full alert & to man the battle positions went out. Most soldiers were rousted out of bed and at company muster by 02:30. The bulk of the solders were at the battle positions by 04:30 & the last stragglers around 05:00. That is over a hour before the first US soldiers set foot on UTAH Beach & over two hours before the Brits set foot on distant SWORD Beach. Some of the German soldiers describe being sent to breakfast shortly after 05:00.

2. The defenders did not live in the beach defenses. The were billeted at varying distances inland in French houses, hotels, tents, converted barns or commercial building. A few of the bunkers or gun positions had spartan living accomadations, but these were supposed to be temporary. & could not house even half the defenders numbers.

I've not yet found a description of exactly how the German defenses were manned when not alerted. Estimating from my own training I'd expect 1-3 men with each crew served weapons bunker; a similar number at each company & battalion CP and each artillery observation post. Also a platoon size guard detail for each kilometer of beach. Omaha Beach was approx 8000 meters long, with 12 cannon bunkers & twice that many MG bunkers. So, maybe 350 men actually in or very near the beach defense positions. that may be between 15 & 20 % of the total assigned to defend the 8 kilometer front of O Beach.

The remainder were sleeping, or whoring anywhere from 300 to 3000 meters inland, perhaps further for some. Its a short march by any armies standards, but it seems to have taken a minimum two hours to get the battle positions manned to 90%. That movement was made without interfereance other than a few stray paratroopers.

Lets supose the Allied planners had choosen to set a program of suppresive fires on the beach defenses, and interdiction fires inland on the approaches, from around 02:00. These would not be of the intensity to constitute destructive fires, or even nuetralizing fires. The object would be to pin as many of the defenders inland between their billets & the battle positions. This would not prevent all movement, but would slow it, disrupt it, and inflict 2-3% casualties in the first couple hours to 04:00. After full light the interdiction program could be reduced somewhat, with the fires concentrated on the beach defenses. That still interferes with defenders moving to their assigned bunkers.

Exactly how much this would reduce the numbers in the beach defenses, or inland artillery positions can only be guessed at. I'd estimate 25% overall at a minimum, but would not be suprised if it reached 50% or even 75% at a few locations. More important is the effect on morale and combat efficiency. A number of NCOs & officers would be missing, some of the CP would be non functional, some of the guns with too few crew, and counter attack groups missing or too demoralized. Overall the defenders would have been subject to four hours of heavy caliber fire vs the 45 minutes of the historical fire plan for O Beach. while the fire would have been less intense during the first three hours & many would have avoided it, the last hour plus of intenser fire on the beach defenses would have enhanced the necessary degradation of morale, or 'bombardment shock' as some might put it.

Between the missing interdicted men & final suppresion or shock the combat efficiency of the beach defenses & supporting artillery might be reduced by 25%, perhaps more in some locations.
 
Perhaps the OP was suggesting that battleships were obsolete by 1944, so the most effective use would be running them aground and using their huge guns to bombard enemy positions.

As for visibility, they would need forward observers (naval gunnery officers) to advance with the leading infantry company and radio corrections back to the ship.

As for sailors being vulnerable, compare Royal Navy casualties with Canadian infantry casualties.

As for magazines being vulnerable, just fill some of the outboard compartments with concrete. It's not like a battleship needs a few million tons of bunker oil to cross the Englush Channel!

As for beached battleships blocking access to the beach ..... if you run them aground bow-first, then they help break waves/protect the Mulberry.

After the war, scrap metal merchants can cut them up, the same way Pakistani breaking yards do today.
 

marathag

Banned
Bad idea. Once beached and the tide goes in, you're exposing the essentially unprotected sides to German artillery and anti-tank fire.

Tide difference at Omaha was 18 feet, exposing near 400 yards of sand between High and Low Tides.

640px-Omaha_beach_cross_section.svg.png

Pre-Dreds had typical draft of around 28 feet, so it's going to ground where even at low tide, will have plenty of water around the hull
omaha_beach_east_b_1944.jpg
 
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Perhaps the OP was suggesting that battleships were obsolete by 1944, so the most effective use would be running them aground and using their huge guns to bombard enemy positions.

As for visibility, they would need forward observers (naval gunnery officers) to advance with the leading infantry company and radio corrections back to the ship.

As for sailors being vulnerable, compare Royal Navy casualties with Canadian infantry casualties.

As for magazines being vulnerable, just fill some of the outboard compartments with concrete. It's not like a battleship needs a few million tons of bunker oil to cross the Englush Channel!

As for beached battleships blocking access to the beach ..... if you run them aground bow-first, then they help break waves/protect the Mulberry.

After the war, scrap metal merchants can cut them up, the same way Pakistani breaking yards do today.

That's pretty much exactly what I had in mind. I was curious about it as a "Would it work?" exercise.

Politically it would never happen. Asking an admiral to intentionally beach ships is akin to asking a vegan to barbecue a panda.
They would by confident their battlewagons could provide pinpoint fire support from a mile offshore and promise that to the army commanders.
 
Were Battleship hulls meant to absorb the load of heavy guns firing when they were grounded? Would the stress imparted to the hull when it was solid against the bottom cause damage to the structure that would make the ship unusable as a gun battery?

The ships would still require power to service the guns, fir control and communications. Once grounded would they be able to continue running engines with cooling systems filling with 'sand' and stationary in the water? Would shock loads put on machinery mounts when the hull is lodged against the ground instead of floating in the flexible medium of water cause the machinery to fail?

When was the last time a grounded ship fough its main battery?
 
This made me think of Singapore. Repulse and/or PoW make it to the graving dock, and then when IJA artillery is positioned in Johore, fire their main guns while on hard ground. What happens? There's a lot of unsupported hull.
 
This made me think of Singapore. Repulse and/or PoW make it to the graving dock, and then when IJA artillery is positioned in Johore, fire their main guns while on hard ground. What happens? There's a lot of unsupported hull.

I would think they would flood the dock first. And the Japanese Navy and Army Air Force would attack them with everything they had.

This may help the allies in the long term if the dock and its supporting infrastructure was damaged and therefor not able to be used by the Japanese for a long period
 
Perhaps the OP was suggesting that battleships were obsolete by 1944, so the most effective use would be running them aground and using their huge guns to bombard enemy positions.

That can be done more effectively from a non beached ship. Trust me, I had real training in this.

As for visibility, they would need forward observers (naval gunnery officers) to advance with the leading infantry company and radio corrections back to the ship.

Gee, I wonder why no one thought of this. Oh wait, they did, spotting teams for naval gun fire were in virtually every amphibious landing the Allies executed. In the first wave @ Omaha Beach there were six of these teams, one for each assault battalion.

After the war, scrap metal merchants can cut them up, the same way Pakistani breaking yards do today.

Ok, so a battleship that OTL was planned for use in other combat during the remaining year of the war has been reduced to scrap & will be useless in subsequent battles?

To add another point here. Projectiles of 20cm caliber have a effective casualty radius of 75 to 150 meters depending on the angle of fall of shot & the ground surface. Add in error from aim point & the resulting hit pattern from multiple shots & the danger zone around a target attacked by a 8" gun cruiser is 300+ meters. That is any US soldiers exposed on the beach or shingle within a few foot ball fields length of the target will be in greater danger than the German defenders protected inside their concrete bunkers. They are only vulnerable to a direct hit or a hit within a few meters, while the attackers moing on the beach or lying prone will, I say again WILL take losses from the supporting fire. The only way to avoid this is to back off 300 to 400 meters from the objective under attack.

If a 35cm projectile is aimed at the bunker defending the beach the danger zone to the exposed Allied infantry or engineers expands out to over 500 meters. The Germans were fairly safe in their bunkers from all but a direct or near hit, but a slightly miss aimed salvo from a heavy cruiser or battleship could easily render 300 -400 Allied soldiers hors combat on the crowded & exposed beaches.

This is why only the destroyers & light 15cm (6") gun cruisers were used for close in fire support. Here, as in most other amphibious assaults the heavy 20cm & larger guns were aimed at beach targets only during the preparation fires before the first assualt wave came close. Once the assault started the heavy naval gun fire was shifted to inland targets, like artillery positions, suspected HQ, suspected reserve assemblies, interdiction of roads, ect...
 
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Perhaps the OP was suggesting that battleships were obsolete by 1944, so the most effective use would be running them aground and using their huge guns to bombard enemy positions.


That is the biggest leap in logic I have ever seen. It would make a flea proud.
 
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