Battle of the Bulge
- Thread starter flamelord
- Start date
It was impossible for them to win! I made a similar thread a while back...
They cannot hope to beat the Allies at this point, their attack has petered out, they are numerically inferior, and lack the resources to maintain the advance.
The plan was to use captured oil as they advanced, and drive the Allies into the sea...one of Hitler's insane plans, that never could have really worked.
They cannot hope to beat the Allies at this point, their attack has petered out, they are numerically inferior, and lack the resources to maintain the advance.
The plan was to use captured oil as they advanced, and drive the Allies into the sea...one of Hitler's insane plans, that never could have really worked.
Even if, by some measure of incredible luck and a healthy dose of incompetence on behalf of the Allies, the Germans had made it all the way to Antwerp, their ability to maintain this kind of salient in the allied lines was virtually nil. By this point in the war they just didn't have the resources. Just to get as far as they did was a monumental effort and used up nearly everything they had. Also, once the weather cleared and the Allied air forces returned to the skies, the German columns would have been cut to ribbons.
By late 1944 there was nothing that the Germans could realisticly do to win. The Allies were just too powerful. Short of a complete political and military collapse on the Allied side (the likelyhood of which was zero) the Germans were doomed. The best they could hope for was to give us a bloody nose (which they did).
Dave
www.pigboats.com
By late 1944 there was nothing that the Germans could realisticly do to win. The Allies were just too powerful. Short of a complete political and military collapse on the Allied side (the likelyhood of which was zero) the Germans were doomed. The best they could hope for was to give us a bloody nose (which they did).
Dave
www.pigboats.com
Plus it might even lead to a faster defeat of Germany. That long of a saliant is just asking to be cut off at the base. 3rd Army probably could have drove for Bastogne, kept going and link up with elements of 21st Army Group. This leaves the Germans' forces cut off and easy pickings for air power as Dave said. With the bulk of the Germany's forces on Western Front destroyed, can the Allies get to the interior faster than OTL?
Anaxagoras
Banned
If the Germans achieved their objective of capturing Antwerp (extremely unlikely, but not impossible if everything goes perfectly for them), it would put the British armies in a bit of a bind, being cut off from their American allies. But the Hitler's idea that the Germans could then destroy the British pocket was utter nonsense. They would have dug in and waited for the Americans to blast their way through the German bulge.
I agree with those who say that a more successful German offensive could actually have shortened the war, as the Germans would have suffered heavier losses in attempting to hold back the American counter attack than they did IOTL.
It obviously would have dislocated Allied preparations quite a bit (which happened IOTL, too), but the only result would have been a shortened war and perhaps great Russian gains than happened IOTL.
I agree with those who say that a more successful German offensive could actually have shortened the war, as the Germans would have suffered heavier losses in attempting to hold back the American counter attack than they did IOTL.
It obviously would have dislocated Allied preparations quite a bit (which happened IOTL, too), but the only result would have been a shortened war and perhaps great Russian gains than happened IOTL.
Much shorter war - IOTL the Allies mainly forced the Germans back to where they had been at the start of the offensive; in this, they can plausibly cut off and destroy a big chunk of the westheer. The cutting-off of the Brits might hurt a bit but the Germans can't destroy them and given the way that the Germans are going to be losing men and materiel I think it will more than even out.
Assuming, though some bizarre miracle that they magically got the fuel, men and general supplies thay needed (which is about five times what they actually had available)?
The Germans wind up stretched out across a long narrow band stretching toward Antwerp exposed to mind-numbing amounts of Allied airpower while fully exposed on the Belgian plain. These forces are rapidly cut off and obliterated
The effort to maintain the force absorbs most of the pitiful reserve being held back to defend both the Rhine and the southern approaches to the Reich, resulting in the Rhine being breached a month early. Germany surrenders around the end of March when the Red Army takes Berlin.
In sort the Germans lose about a month earlier as they have allowed themselves to be forced into a position where they are even more vulnerable to allied airpower than was the case IOTL.
the only way for the germans to "win" is if they ignore their orders to capture antwarp and instead focus on causing as much casualties as they can and minimize their own. of course thats an oxymoron and impossable but its sure more possable than capturing antwarp and way more possable than recapturing paris or pushing the wallies back to the sea.
if they cause enough casualties while having most of their organic forces intact they might be able to cause the wallies to have to regroup and wait for a while for more renforcements to arrive. would keep germany alive for about i dont know... 3 more weeks max. of course this situation would be nearly impossable (but hey it has a chance unlike the original).
if they cause enough casualties while having most of their organic forces intact they might be able to cause the wallies to have to regroup and wait for a while for more renforcements to arrive. would keep germany alive for about i dont know... 3 more weeks max. of course this situation would be nearly impossable (but hey it has a chance unlike the original).
burmafrd
Banned
By Dec 44 nothing the Germans could do really matters. At best they could hope was to delay the final defeat by a few weeks to a month or so. The forces used in the west would have made little difference in the east except if they were held back to defend berlin. THAT could have made a difference in the casualties the Russians took there. They lost a lot of men taking berlin as it was; if the 200,000 men used in the bulge (plus the tanks and the fuel) were available in April to defend berlin, not to mention the veterans lost at the bulge and their expereince, then maybe the Russians lose another 3-500,000 men taking berlin.