Baseball PODs and Scenarios

I think they could have a good chance of winning the NL Pennant, but the Red Sox's superior pitching would unfortunately shut them down in the Series.

Still, the Giants would be in better shape in the long term having retained Nathan and Liriano. Liriano's breakout year was in 2006, and it being for the Giants may well cause management to not shell out that huge deal for Barry Zito.

More than that, think of the reprocussions for the Twins.

If they don't get Nathan and Liriano, their youth movement would have been severly hampered and they may not have gotten the new stadium deal, and while Pohlad wouldn't have been able to contract the team, he might end up selling it to owners who might move the club.

Back to DC? Where would the Expos end up in that scenario, or would they end up contracted?
 
Baseball

bump

Dammit, I'm not losing another perfectly good Alt-Sports thread!

I agree. We can only talk about presidents so much.

Now, back to baseball:

1. These have to do with Buffalo:

A. What if Ban Johnson didn't choose Boston over Buffalo when forming the American League in 1901?

B. What if Montreal wouldn't have gotten their act together in 1968, and had their NL franchise given to Buffalo instead?

C. What if the DeBartolo's were able to buy the White Sox and move them to Denver in 1980? Does Buffalo get a team in the 91 or 98 expansions?
 
I'm not sure Buffalo would have remained a major league city. True, in 1900, Buffalo ranked eighth among US cities in population, but wouldn't rank in the top ten for much longer. And Johnson wasn't above shifting teams to make more of a splash: consider that the AL as formed had the Milwaukee Brewers, who became the St. Louis Browns rather quickly.
 
Here's one concerning the Federal League. (I'm fuzzy at best on the legal details so I won't go there.)

Suppose that instead of dissolving the eight Federal League teams completely, some sort of court decision led directly to dissolution of the league itself but a merger of those teams into the existing major leagues? That would yield two leagues of twelve teams each, similar to the National League through much of the 1890s. You may see a lineup like this:

National League

Baltimore Orioles (formerly FL Baltimore Terrapins)
Boston Braves
Brooklyn Dodgers
Chicago Cubs
Cincinnati Reds
Milwaukee Brewers (formerly FL Chicago Whales)
Montreal Royals (formerly FL Pittsburgh Rebels)
New York Giants
Philadelphia Phillies
Pittsburgh Pirates
St. Louis Cardinals
Twin Cities Twins (formerly FL St. Louis Terriers)

American League

Boston Red Sox
Brooklyn Aces (formerly FL Brooklyn Tip Tops)
Buffalo Bisons (formerly FL Buffalo Buffeds)
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Indians
Detroit Tigers
Kansas City Blues (formerly FL Kansas City Packers)
New York Yankees
Philadelphia Athletics
St. Louis Browns
Toronto Mounties (formerly FL Newark Peps)
Washington Senators

I believe both Montreal and Toronto were sufficiently large in, say, 1916 to support major league baseball. And imagine that four-way rivalry in the vicinity of Lake Erie (yeah, I know, Toronto is on Lake Ontario but it's a short hop from Buffalo, and so forth) involving Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Toronto...
 
More than that, think of the reprocussions for the Twins.

If they don't get Nathan and Liriano, their youth movement would have been severly hampered and they may not have gotten the new stadium deal, and while Pohlad wouldn't have been able to contract the team, he might end up selling it to owners who might move the club.

Back to DC? Where would the Expos end up in that scenario, or would they end up contracted?

I don't think it would come to that for the Twins. They still would have Joe Mauer coming up, Justin Morneau would emerge as a big-time slugger, and they could replace Liriano's pitching eventually by hanging on to Matt Garza rather than trading him to the Tampa Bay Rays like they did in OTL.

The bigger problem would be finding a closer to replace Nathan.

On another note, if the Twins don't trade Garza to the Rays, the Rays probably don't win the AL Pennant in 2008.
 
Buffalo

I'm not sure Buffalo would have remained a major league city. True, in 1900, Buffalo ranked eighth among US cities in population, but wouldn't rank in the top ten for much longer. And Johnson wasn't above shifting teams to make more of a splash: consider that the AL as formed had the Milwaukee Brewers, who became the St. Louis Browns rather quickly.

Good point, although I did read an article somebody wrote about the loss of the team in 1901. It basically implied that, while, having a major league team isn't the most important thing in the world, maybe Buffalo's losing of that team was a factor in the downfall of the city.
 
Federal League accepted.

Here's one concerning the Federal League. (I'm fuzzy at best on the legal details so I won't go there.)

Suppose that instead of dissolving the eight Federal League teams completely, some sort of court decision led directly to dissolution of the league itself but a merger of those teams into the existing major leagues? That would yield two leagues of twelve teams each, similar to the National League through much of the 1890s. You may see a lineup like this:

National League

Baltimore Orioles (formerly FL Baltimore Terrapins)
Boston Braves
Brooklyn Dodgers
Chicago Cubs
Cincinnati Reds
Milwaukee Brewers (formerly FL Chicago Whales)
Montreal Royals (formerly FL Pittsburgh Rebels)
New York Giants
Philadelphia Phillies
Pittsburgh Pirates
St. Louis Cardinals
Twin Cities Twins (formerly FL St. Louis Terriers)

American League

Boston Red Sox
Brooklyn Aces (formerly FL Brooklyn Tip Tops)
Buffalo Bisons (formerly FL Buffalo Buffeds)
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Indians
Detroit Tigers
Kansas City Blues (formerly FL Kansas City Packers)
New York Yankees
Philadelphia Athletics
St. Louis Browns
Toronto Mounties (formerly FL Newark Peps)
Washington Senators

I believe both Montreal and Toronto were sufficiently large in, say, 1916 to support major league baseball. And imagine that four-way rivalry in the vicinity of Lake Erie (yeah, I know, Toronto is on Lake Ontario but it's a short hop from Buffalo, and so forth) involving Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Toronto...
How about the Federal League is asked to join the National Agreement? Then we have three leagues of eight teams?
 
I agree. We can only talk about presidents so much.

Now, back to baseball:

1. These have to do with Buffalo:

A. What if Ban Johnson didn't choose Boston over Buffalo when forming the American League in 1901?

B. What if Montreal wouldn't have gotten their act together in 1968, and had their NL franchise given to Buffalo instead?

C. What if the DeBartolo's were able to buy the White Sox and move them to Denver in 1980? Does Buffalo get a team in the 91 or 98 expansions?

A. Boston's getting the nod over Buffalo. It's one of the largest cities in the country and the only way for the AL to compete is to put teams in as many of the big cities as they can. Figure, Boston, Philly, D.C., Baltimore, Cleveland Detroit and Chicago are mortal locks to get teams. In only two years time, Baltimore's in NYC, as the AL had gained enough traction and obviously found a stable owner ship group to keep it afloat and competitive with at least Brooklyn as New York's "Second Team" (as the Giants were something like the Yankees of the time).

Now, that leaves Milwaukee vs. Buffalo for the last team. I think Buffalo, with a stronger owner, could land the team. Weather that team's chances of staying in it's original city are any better than the one that ended up in Milwaukee, then St. Louis and finally, Baltimore, is anyone's guess.

B. Probably their last, best chance. If things fall apart in Montreal in '67, the most likely killer would be Bronfram staying out, Buffalo gets the club.

Only questions: Would the would-be Bisons still be there today?

Ripple effect of Buffalo getting the club over Montreal:

Toronto and Montreal fighting over the AL East expansion slot in 1976.

C. If Denver gets the Chi Sox in 1980 (Goooo Zephyrs!) the NL awards their expansion club for the NL West to Phoenix. MLB on the whole was looking to expand into the last two great untapped markets: The mountain west and the south by then. Miami was a mortal lock in the east and with Denver out of the running, Phoenix gets the team.


I don't think it would come to that for the Twins. They still would have Joe Mauer coming up, Justin Morneau would emerge as a big-time slugger, and they could replace Liriano's pitching eventually by hanging on to Matt Garza rather than trading him to the Tampa Bay Rays like they did in OTL.

The bigger problem would be finding a closer to replace Nathan.

On another note, if the Twins don't trade Garza to the Rays, the Rays probably don't win the AL Pennant in 2008.

It might not come to that...but it is Carl Pohlad we're talking about. $3.5 billion in the bank and crying poor every year. The guy was, to be polite, almost as bad as Loria. I wouldn't put anything past him, but the league would probably go Expos on him, buy him out, find a new ownership group and it'll either end up back in D.C. or stay put.



Here's one that ties into the 'Spos:

What if the rest of the Senate (or even just the ones from California and Washington) told Sen. Stuart Symington to shut the hell up about dragging MLB before congress ("Hey, Stu, THERE'S A GODDAMN WAR GOING ON AND YOU WANT TO WASTE TIME WITH THIS SHIT?!") and KC, Seattle, San Diego and Montreal aren't rushed into the league in 1969 and the original plan for a 1971 entry is kept?

The Expos have some breathing room, the city of Montreal has time to get it's stadium situation squared away and Jean-Louis Levesque probably stays in the ownership group and Bronfram maybe never gets involved and or at least not as majority owner and thus never sells it to the Consortium of Clods in 1990...which, hopefully, also means Jeff Loria never gets his hands on an MLB franchise.

'Spos still in Montreal today?

But then there's the Pilots. My primary interest in this POD.

Given a good four years to plan and prepare, maybe Seattle gets it's own stadium issues in order, the biggest one being Sick's Stadium getting the full overhaul to 30,000 seats, easily capable of sustaining a club until the Kingdome opens in 1976. If the Pilots survive and even thrive under better these far more favorable circumstances, what becomes of Milwaukee?

I have to figure they get the AL West expansion club that became the Mariners in 1976. Problem...Bud Selig still gets into the MLB.

Thoughts?
 
A. Boston's getting the nod over Buffalo. It's one of the largest cities in the country and the only way for the AL to compete is to put teams in as many of the big cities as they can. Figure, Boston, Philly, D.C., Baltimore, Cleveland Detroit and Chicago are mortal locks to get teams. In only two years time, Baltimore's in NYC, as the AL had gained enough traction and obviously found a stable owner ship group to keep it afloat and competitive with at least Brooklyn as New York's "Second Team" (as the Giants were something like the Yankees of the time).

Now, that leaves Milwaukee vs. Buffalo for the last team. I think Buffalo, with a stronger owner, could land the team. Weather that team's chances of staying in it's original city are any better than the one that ended up in Milwaukee, then St. Louis and finally, Baltimore, is anyone's guess.

B. Probably their last, best chance. If things fall apart in Montreal in '67, the most likely killer would be Bronfram staying out, Buffalo gets the club.

Only questions: Would the would-be Bisons still be there today?

Ripple effect of Buffalo getting the club over Montreal:

Toronto and Montreal fighting over the AL East expansion slot in 1976.

C. If Denver gets the Chi Sox in 1980 (Goooo Zephyrs!) the NL awards their expansion club for the NL West to Phoenix. MLB on the whole was looking to expand into the last two great untapped markets: The mountain west and the south by then. Miami was a mortal lock in the east and with Denver out of the running, Phoenix gets the team.




It might not come to that...but it is Carl Pohlad we're talking about. $3.5 billion in the bank and crying poor every year. The guy was, to be polite, almost as bad as Loria. I wouldn't put anything past him, but the league would probably go Expos on him, buy him out, find a new ownership group and it'll either end up back in D.C. or stay put.



Here's one that ties into the 'Spos:

What if the rest of the Senate (or even just the ones from California and Washington) told Sen. Stuart Symington to shut the hell up about dragging MLB before congress ("Hey, Stu, THERE'S A GODDAMN WAR GOING ON AND YOU WANT TO WASTE TIME WITH THIS SHIT?!") and KC, Seattle, San Diego and Montreal aren't rushed into the league in 1969 and the original plan for a 1971 entry is kept?

The Expos have some breathing room, the city of Montreal has time to get it's stadium situation squared away and Jean-Louis Levesque probably stays in the ownership group and Bronfram maybe never gets involved and or at least not as majority owner and thus never sells it to the Consortium of Clods in 1990...which, hopefully, also means Jeff Loria never gets his hands on an MLB franchise.

'Spos still in Montreal today?

But then there's the Pilots. My primary interest in this POD.

Given a good four years to plan and prepare, maybe Seattle gets it's own stadium issues in order, the biggest one being Sick's Stadium getting the full overhaul to 30,000 seats, easily capable of sustaining a club until the Kingdome opens in 1976. If the Pilots survive and even thrive under better these far more favorable circumstances, what becomes of Milwaukee?

I have to figure they get the AL West expansion club that became the Mariners in 1976. Problem...Bud Selig still gets into the MLB.

Thoughts?

Think about this, though: If Buffalo gets the team over Milwaukee in 1901, and they stay there a long time, that may have had an affect on their NFL and/or NHL chances by the 50's. They should have been included in the NFL-AAFC merger in 1950, and they did try to get an NHL team in the 50's as well.

With major league status at an earlier time, maybe there would have been a different and positive vibe that would have emanated through the city a long time ago, and it may have turned into a better sports market.

Here are some more scenarios that deal with the Astros:

1. They don't make that stupid trade with the Reds and hold onto Joe Morgan and Cesar Geronimo in 1971.

2. J.R. Richard doesn't suffer a stroke in 1980.

3. Nolan Ryan doesn't blow a 5-2 lead in Game 5 of the 1980 NLCS against Philadelphia.
 
Think about this, though: If Buffalo gets the team over Milwaukee in 1901, and they stay there a long time, that may have had an affect on their NFL and/or NHL chances by the 50's. They should have been included in the NFL-AAFC merger in 1950, and they did try to get an NHL team in the 50's as well.

Actually, even without an MLB team, Buffalo fielded a pro football team in the APFA and NFL for 10 years. The Buffalo All-Americans/Bisons were a charter franchise of the NFL. They folded after the 1929 season and they weren't the only ones, the Boston Bulldogs and Dayton Triangles also went under the year of The Crash.

The Depression killed quite a few franchises, actually. The Minneapolis Red Jackets and Newark Tornadoes followed in 1930. The Providence Steam Roller and Frankford Yellow Jackets, at the time the two winingist teams in the league with two NFL titles between them, went under after the 1931 season. I have to figure the economic situation of the times hit some places harder than others.

Why they weren't included in the AAFC-NFL merger, I couldn't tell you. Obviously, by 1946, the area had recovered and capable of supporting a team again. Why they were left out I just don't know.

Now, the NHL? I can tell you why that didn't happen sooner: Stupidity.

The NHL decided to operate as a six team league for 25 years. Why?

No logical reason I can think of. The fact that Buffalo, Philly, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Ottawa, Milwaukee or Minneapolis all didn't have franchises by 1960 boggles my mind.

Then again, much of what the NHL does/has done over the course of their history is puzzling at best and mind numbing at worst.

Of course, St. Louis didn't have an NFL franchise until 1960 always left me perplexed. Especially when you think about the Cardinals actually staying in Chicago WILLINGLY all those years, as a second thought to the Bears, while the untouched jewel of St. Louis just sat there...on second thought, don't. It's already giving me a headache.:confused:

With major league status at an earlier time, maybe there would have been a different and positive vibe that would have emanated through the city a long time ago, and it may have turned into a better sports market.

They had an NL team from 1879-1884 and it folded.

They had one of the original NFL clubs and they folded.

The Bills joined the upstart AFL and made it into the NFL where they've enjoyed successes to a point.

The NBA gave them a shot with the Braves and they stayed for eight years...before they left for San Diego where they became the Clippers and the rest is a punchline.

The NHL gave them the Sabres and by The Great Gil Perreault's Mustache, in Buffalo they remain!

Buffalo's kind of a mystery to me; the economy for major league sport is there. The market interest for major league sport is there. Give them teams and the support for major league sport is there.

The only thing I can come up with to explain the lack of MLB and NBA presence there is that those regions are fairly saturated. Pittsburgh doesn't have an NBA team, does that make sense? Neither does Cinnci (Though, like Buffalo, they did at one time). St. Louis has no NBA team either. We're constantly told how Basketball is the most popular or second most popular sport in America, so why aren't there teams in all the major markets?

It's beyond me.

Kinda like: Why was Atlanta given TWO NHL expansion franchises, yet Milwaukee (where women's collegiate hockey games sell out) hasn't even gotten a whiff of an NHL franchise?

Again, I feel a headache coming on, so I'll leave it at that.

Here are some more scenarios that deal with the Astros:

1. They don't make that stupid trade with the Reds and hold onto Joe Morgan and Cesar Geronimo in 1971.

2. J.R. Richard doesn't suffer a stroke in 1980.

3. Nolan Ryan doesn't blow a 5-2 lead in Game 5 of the 1980 NLCS against Philadelphia.

1. The Reds will still be good, but won't become The Big Red Machine. The Astros, by contrast, probably would have been better, but by how much, I don't know. The 'Stros may be much better if Morgan experiences the same resurgence in his hitting as he did in Cinnci. Geronimo's not that big a deal. He was shipped out to make room for Cesar Cedeno, and that's actually an upgrade in center, unless Geronimo moves to right, that could work too. What the 'Stros seemed to lack in those days was consistent power. Did the Astrodome tend to kill long flies? It seems like the 'Stros never wanted for pitching, guys who could hit for average or speedsters on the base paths, but homers seemed hard to come by.

2. I was going to mention this one. My what if for J.R. is, "What if J.R. Richard gets a second opinion?"

He complained of "dead arm" (numbness in the hand and fingers in particular) and when checked at Methodist Hospital, he had almost no blood pressure at all in his right arm. The angiogram he was given revealed an obstruction in his subclavian and axillary arteries. The doctors, incredulously, dismissed the need for surgery because the arteries in his neck were clear.

If J.R. gets a second opinion, I'm almost positive the next doctor he saw would've had him prepped for emergency surgery.

When he gets back, I don't know. Depends on how quickly he heals but the more pressing question if J.R.'s stroke is prevented and then he has a total recovery from the surgery is this: Why would he EVER want to play for a club that disregarded his health like that or in a city where the local sports writers openly conjectured that he was just being "a whiner", "couldn't handle pitching in Houston" :)confused:) or was jealous of Nolan Ryan's recent contract.

If I'm J.R., I'm shutting it down for the rest of the season and going home after the surgery, listening to my doctors and hiring a personal trainer and physical therapist to help with my rehab and then, when I'm 100%, I'm asking for a trade. If I'm in my walk year, I'm walking.

That simple. The 'Stros didn't look out for their best pitcher and he lost his career, almost his life, because of it.

Why play for an organization like that? In a city where the media crapped on him while he was in serious medical danger?


3. Everyone has a sports What If? game. For me, it's the 1991 NFC Championship.

What If...Mike "Captain Hook" Cofer doesn't shank one or both of his two missed field goals that day? Answer: 49ers 16/19, Giants 12.

What If...George Seifert pulls Montana and lets Young, Craig and Rathman (and maybe a well timed reverse by Rice or Taylor to seal it) run out the clock? Answer: Maybe Craig still fumbles, but even money says the Giants are too deep in their own end for the comeback before the clock runs out. This much is certain: Montana doesn't miss the next two seasons.

For Game 5 of the 1980 NLCS...How about, Virdon brings in Dave Smith in the eighth to close out the game, instead of sending Ryan back out?

Doesn't help that the 'Stros blew games 4 and 5 at home in that series.

And both in the eighth.
 
Actually, even without an MLB team, Buffalo fielded a pro football team in the APFA and NFL for 10 years. The Buffalo All-Americans/Bisons were a charter franchise of the NFL. They folded after the 1929 season and they weren't the only ones, the Boston Bulldogs and Dayton Triangles also went under the year of The Crash.

The Depression killed quite a few franchises, actually. The Minneapolis Red Jackets and Newark Tornadoes followed in 1930. The Providence Steam Roller and Frankford Yellow Jackets, at the time the two winingist teams in the league with two NFL titles between them, went under after the 1931 season. I have to figure the economic situation of the times hit some places harder than others.

Why they weren't included in the AAFC-NFL merger, I couldn't tell you. Obviously, by 1946, the area had recovered and capable of supporting a team again. Why they were left out I just don't know.

Now, the NHL? I can tell you why that didn't happen sooner: Stupidity.

The NHL decided to operate as a six team league for 25 years. Why?

No logical reason I can think of. The fact that Buffalo, Philly, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Ottawa, Milwaukee or Minneapolis all didn't have franchises by 1960 boggles my mind.

Then again, much of what the NHL does/has done over the course of their history is puzzling at best and mind numbing at worst.

Of course, St. Louis didn't have an NFL franchise until 1960 always left me perplexed. Especially when you think about the Cardinals actually staying in Chicago WILLINGLY all those years, as a second thought to the Bears, while the untouched jewel of St. Louis just sat there...on second thought, don't. It's already giving me a headache.:confused:



They had an NL team from 1879-1884 and it folded.

They had one of the original NFL clubs and they folded.

The Bills joined the upstart AFL and made it into the NFL where they've enjoyed successes to a point.

The NBA gave them a shot with the Braves and they stayed for eight years...before they left for San Diego where they became the Clippers and the rest is a punchline.

The NHL gave them the Sabres and by The Great Gil Perreault's Mustache, in Buffalo they remain!

Buffalo's kind of a mystery to me; the economy for major league sport is there. The market interest for major league sport is there. Give them teams and the support for major league sport is there.

The only thing I can come up with to explain the lack of MLB and NBA presence there is that those regions are fairly saturated. Pittsburgh doesn't have an NBA team, does that make sense? Neither does Cinnci (Though, like Buffalo, they did at one time). St. Louis has no NBA team either. We're constantly told how Basketball is the most popular or second most popular sport in America, so why aren't there teams in all the major markets?

It's beyond me.

Kinda like: Why was Atlanta given TWO NHL expansion franchises, yet Milwaukee (where women's collegiate hockey games sell out) hasn't even gotten a whiff of an NHL franchise?

Again, I feel a headache coming on, so I'll leave it at that.



1. The Reds will still be good, but won't become The Big Red Machine. The Astros, by contrast, probably would have been better, but by how much, I don't know. The 'Stros may be much better if Morgan experiences the same resurgence in his hitting as he did in Cinnci. Geronimo's not that big a deal. He was shipped out to make room for Cesar Cedeno, and that's actually an upgrade in center, unless Geronimo moves to right, that could work too. What the 'Stros seemed to lack in those days was consistent power. Did the Astrodome tend to kill long flies? It seems like the 'Stros never wanted for pitching, guys who could hit for average or speedsters on the base paths, but homers seemed hard to come by.

2. I was going to mention this one. My what if for J.R. is, "What if J.R. Richard gets a second opinion?"

He complained of "dead arm" (numbness in the hand and fingers in particular) and when checked at Methodist Hospital, he had almost no blood pressure at all in his right arm. The angiogram he was given revealed an obstruction in his subclavian and axillary arteries. The doctors, incredulously, dismissed the need for surgery because the arteries in his neck were clear.

If J.R. gets a second opinion, I'm almost positive the next doctor he saw would've had him prepped for emergency surgery.

When he gets back, I don't know. Depends on how quickly he heals but the more pressing question if J.R.'s stroke is prevented and then he has a total recovery from the surgery is this: Why would he EVER want to play for a club that disregarded his health like that or in a city where the local sports writers openly conjectured that he was just being "a whiner", "couldn't handle pitching in Houston" :)confused:) or was jealous of Nolan Ryan's recent contract.

If I'm J.R., I'm shutting it down for the rest of the season and going home after the surgery, listening to my doctors and hiring a personal trainer and physical therapist to help with my rehab and then, when I'm 100%, I'm asking for a trade. If I'm in my walk year, I'm walking.

That simple. The 'Stros didn't look out for their best pitcher and he lost his career, almost his life, because of it.

Why play for an organization like that? In a city where the media crapped on him while he was in serious medical danger?


3. Everyone has a sports What If? game. For me, it's the 1991 NFC Championship.

What If...Mike "Captain Hook" Cofer doesn't shank one or both of his two missed field goals that day? Answer: 49ers 16/19, Giants 12.

What If...George Seifert pulls Montana and lets Young, Craig and Rathman (and maybe a well timed reverse by Rice or Taylor to seal it) run out the clock? Answer: Maybe Craig still fumbles, but even money says the Giants are too deep in their own end for the comeback before the clock runs out. This much is certain: Montana doesn't miss the next two seasons.

For Game 5 of the 1980 NLCS...How about, Virdon brings in Dave Smith in the eighth to close out the game, instead of sending Ryan back out?

Doesn't help that the 'Stros blew games 4 and 5 at home in that series.

And both in the eighth.

I know that this is a baseball thread, but the Giants missed chances of their own. Maurice Carthon dropped a halfback option pass in the end zone, and Matt Bahr missed a relatively easy FG in the third quarter.

As for the Morgan trade, a team that the trade had an affect on was the Pirates. They definitely would have won the 72 NLCS if the Reds didn't make that trade. They still should have won, anyway. Bob Moose's wild pitch was so inexplicable.
 
Pirates

Another possibility on that 1991 Yankees 10 or more games better (w/ a fully healthy Mattingly):

All of those moves above, plus one:

The Yankees address their most pressing need in 1990 (pitching) in the 1990 draft and use the #10 overall pick to take Mike Mussina.

Not as far fetched as it sounds. Moose was considered to be the most major league ready of all the pitchers taken in the first round that year and would prove it by the second half of the 1991 major league season.

Yanks take Moose at ten, he'll probably be in New York after the '91 All Star break, and with a team like that behind him, pitching like he did OTL, he could be a major second half impact player.

Here is a Pirate WI that involves Mussina:

1. What if the Pirates would have taken OF Ray Lankford in the 87 draft?

2. What if they took Mussina in 1990 instead of Kurt Miller?

With Mussina and Lankford joining the team in 1991, the Pirates, coming off of a loss to the Reds in the NLCS, are bolstered, and ready to take that next step.

However, their outfield of Bonilla, Van Slyke, and Bonds, will have contracts expiring soon. Van Slyke would be re-upped in OTL, but Bonilla was a FA after the 91 season, and Bonds would be one after the 92 season.

So, as a result, they decided to take a gamble. They traded Bonilla right before the 91 season to the White Sox for pitcher Jack McDowell.

With McDowell, Doug Drabek, John Smiley, and Mike Mussina, the Pirates have an awesome rotation, and they have a good lineup with Bonds, Van Slyke, Jeff King, Jay Bell, Chico Lind, and new leadoff hitter Ray Lankford. They win 105 games, beat the Braves in five in the NLCS, and beat Minnesota for the World Series.

The next year, the Pirates went back to the World Series, this time against Toronto. It would be a classic seven-gamer. Game 7 would pit Mike Mussina against Dave Stewart in a classic pitchers duel that went into the 12th inning tied 2-2. In the bottom of the 12th, Barry Bonds hit a home run of reliever Mike Timlin, setting off a joyous celebration in Pittsburgh. It was Mazeroski all over again.

As a result, the Pirates are able to re-sign Bonds for five years, but they would lose Doug Drabek, 2B Jose Lind, and John Smiley to FA after the 91 and 92 seasons. They still had McDowell and Mussina, though, and with Bonds, the Pirates are able to contend the next few seasons, but finish behind the Phils in 93 and the Reds in 95(The 94 seasons was lost to the strike). They make one final run in 97 with Bonds and the freak show team, upsetting Atlanta in the first round, and then losing to Florida in the NLCS. After the season, Bonds would sign with the Giants, and the Pirates would start down their current path of awful baseball.
 
I know that this is a baseball thread, but the Giants missed chances of their own. Maurice Carthon dropped a halfback option pass in the end zone, and Matt Bahr missed a relatively easy FG in the third quarter.

LA-LA-LA-LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LA-LA-LA-LA!:D

I prefer to concentrate on how the 'Niners could have won and Three-peated.

Here's the kick in the guts: That game was played on my 14th birthday...and I was having such a great day until Craig coughed up that ball.:(

As for the Morgan trade, a team that the trade had an affect on was the Pirates. They definitely would have won the 72 NLCS if the Reds didn't make that trade. They still should have won, anyway. Bob Moose's wild pitch was so inexplicable.

That would depend on who they played (if not the Reds) in the NLCS.

Clearly, no Morgan or Geronimo and the Bucs are still playing the Reds, Bucs take that series. I think the impact of another pennant definitely helps Pittsburgh overall too in the long term. Adds another feather to their caps, keeps the interest alive.

Question: Could the Pirates have beaten that A's team in the series?

Another Bucs WI?:

Sid Bream is...OUT!

Where does it go from there?
 
LA-LA-LA-LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LA-LA-LA-LA!:D

I prefer to concentrate on how the 'Niners could have won and Three-peated.

Here's the kick in the guts: That game was played on my 14th birthday...and I was having such a great day until Craig coughed up that ball.:(



That would depend on who they played (if not the Reds) in the NLCS.

Clearly, no Morgan or Geronimo and the Bucs are still playing the Reds, Bucs take that series. I think the impact of another pennant definitely helps Pittsburgh overall too in the long term. Adds another feather to their caps, keeps the interest alive.

Question: Could the Pirates have beaten that A's team in the series?

Another Bucs WI?:

Sid Bream is...OUT!

Where does it go from there?

It goes to extra innings, that's where.

From there, maybe the Pirates bring in rookie knuckleballer Tim Wakefield out of the pen, and he stymies Atlanta hitters for two innings while Barry Bonds hits a homer to put the Pirates up, and eventually they beat Atlanta and go to the WS. However, I don't see them beating Toronto that year, and things work out for them just the same as they are now, unless another person or group is somehow able to get the team(like John Rigas) besides McClatchy and Nutting.

If Rigas gets them(one of the founders of Adelphia Cable), and if the team still gets a new stadium, maybe things work out better for the Pirates than in OTL if the right person takes over the team after Rigas would be indicted in 2002 for bank, wire, and securities fraud.
 
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It goes to extra innings, that's where.

From there, maybe the Pirates bring in rookie knuckleballer Tim Wakefield out of the pen, and he stymies Atlanta hitters for two innings while Barry Bonds hits a homer to put the Pirates up, and eventually they beat Atlanta and go to the WS. However, I don't see them beating Toronto that year, and things work out for them just the same as they are now, unless another person or group is somehow able to get the team(like John Rigas) besides McClatchy and Nutting.

If Rigas gets them(one of the founders of Adelphia Cable), and if the team still gets a new stadium, maybe things work out better for the Pirates than in OTL if the right person takes over the team after Rigas would be indicted in 2002 for bank, wire, and securities fraud.
And no Braves fan would have any idea who Francisco Cabrera was!!
 
It goes to extra innings, that's where.

From there, maybe the Pirates bring in rookie knuckleballer Tim Wakefield out of the pen, and he stymies Atlanta hitters for two innings while Barry Bonds hits a homer to put the Pirates up, and eventually they beat Atlanta and go to the WS. However, I don't see them beating Toronto that year, and things work out for them just the same as they are now, unless another person or group is somehow able to get the team(like John Rigas) besides McClatchy and Nutting.

If Rigas gets them(one of the founders of Adelphia Cable), and if the team still gets a new stadium, maybe things work out better for the Pirates than in OTL if the right person takes over the team after Rigas would be indicted in 2002 for bank, wire, and securities fraud.

I like to think maybe the Bucos could have pulled it off against the Jays and things in Pittsburgh end up sunnier, but that's just the idealist in me.:)

Tigers trade Cobb to the Indians like was planned in 1908. What happens?

Depends, who were the Tigers getting in return?

If the Tigers are getting Shoeless Joe in return, Jackson will probably end up in Cooperstown never having played for the White Sox.

If the Indians get Cobb AND don't have to give up Jackson...look out, because that'll be a hell of a one-two punch in the line up.
 
Shoeless Joe

I like to think maybe the Bucos could have pulled it off against the Jays and things in Pittsburgh end up sunnier, but that's just the idealist in me.:)



Depends, who were the Tigers getting in return?

If the Tigers are getting Shoeless Joe in return, Jackson will probably end up in Cooperstown never having played for the White Sox.

If the Indians get Cobb AND don't have to give up Jackson...look out, because that'll be a hell of a one-two punch in the line up.

Speaking of Shoeless Joe, here is another alternate scenario:

Baseball is televised on radio for the first time in 1915 instead of 1920.

When I was watching the Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame show about the Black Sox, Radio was one of the best of the rest. The show said that if that 1919 WS was on radio, the gambling scandal wouldn't have been possible because they would have been playing for higher stakes.

If radio would have butterflied away the Black Sox, where does baseball go from there?
 
I like to think maybe the Bucos could have pulled it off against the Jays and things in Pittsburgh end up sunnier, but that's just the idealist in me.:)



Depends, who were the Tigers getting in return?

If the Tigers are getting Shoeless Joe in return, Jackson will probably end up in Cooperstown never having played for the White Sox.

If the Indians get Cobb AND don't have to give up Jackson...look out, because that'll be a hell of a one-two punch in the line up.

The trade was Ty Cobb for Elmer Flick straight up. Because Detroit had qualms about Cobb after his incident with the grounds keeper. Shoeless Joe and Cobb were good friends. That team would be scary.
 
Speaking of Shoeless Joe, here is another alternate scenario:

Baseball is televised on radio for the first time in 1915 instead of 1920.

When I was watching the Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame show about the Black Sox, Radio was one of the best of the rest. The show said that if that 1919 WS was on radio, the gambling scandal wouldn't have been possible because they would have been playing for higher stakes.

If radio would have butterflied away the Black Sox, where does baseball go from there?

Very subtle and effective POD for the Black Sox...but not technically possible in 1919. We'd need a radio development POD to make that possible.

Good news is, that's not such a stetch: Have Edison and Westinghouse both jump at wireless transmission, touching off a "Great Radio War" and radio broadcasts of the World Series would be feesible by around 1915/1916 and would probably make the 1919 World Series un-fixable. An audience that big? Stakes that high?

Nice one, Jab.

The trade was Ty Cobb for Elmer Flick straight up. Because Detroit had qualms about Cobb after his incident with the grounds keeper. Shoeless Joe and Cobb were good friends. That team would be scary.

With pitching, it'd be a dynasty.

Another POD for the Pirates:

In the 4th Round of the 1985 draft, they pick David Justice instead of Robin Vaughn.:cool:
 
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