Barbarian languages in the post-Roman world

Why did Barbarian conquorers adopt the languages of the peoples they conquered in the former Roman empire?

What could lead to Romans adopting barbarian languages?

What barbarian languages that were subsumed in favor of a Latin or other pre migration era language, had the highest liklihood of subsuming the latter?
  • Frankish in Gaul
  • Burgundian
  • Langobard
  • Gothic in Iberia, Italy
  • Vandalic
  • Suebic

Why did barbarian languages prevail in some parts of the former Roman Empire? For example
  • Slavic in the Balkans
  • Anglo-Saxon in England and parts of Scotland
  • Various German languages in the Alps, southern germany, Rhine area

Could Arabic and Turkish be described as barbarian languages compared to the languages they conquered?
 
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Vuu

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Anglosaxon and German were never displaced much, those lands are distant and/or difficult to access

Balkans is a mystery that'll only be explained sometime in the future (not too distant i think). Either slavic migrations happened in reverse and the 7th century one was a back-wave (slavs originate from balkans, spread east and north, then later a few groups come back) and they never got very latinized or some other thing
 
Anglosaxon and German were never displaced much, those lands are distant and/or difficult to access
Anglosaxon subsumed mostly Celtic speakers aswell as a small Latin speaking minority. German mostly displaced Latin speakers close to Germania.
Balkans is a mystery that'll only be explained sometime in the future (not too distant i think). Either slavic migrations happened in reverse and the 7th century one was a back-wave (slavs originate from balkans, spread east and north, then later a few groups come back) and they never got very latinized or some other thing
I read that the Slavs instead of co-opting the Roman institutions replaced them with their own. Thereby the need for Roman knowledge decreased. The prestige of all thing Roman also became more faint in daily life. Slavs were also part of the Avar and Bulgarian forces, becoming some kind of lingua franca among armed men.
 
In places where Roman institutions remained (France, Iberia, Italy) the barbarians simply formed an elite on top of the existing structure. There they gradually assimilated into the post-Roman cultures of the peoples they conquered.

In places where Roman institutions collapsed (Britain, the Balkans, Hungary) barbarians replaced them with wholly new institutions, and their languages were able to spread to the masses.
 
In places where Roman institutions remained (France, Iberia, Italy) the barbarians simply formed an elite on top of the existing structure. There they gradually assimilated into the post-Roman cultures of the peoples they conquered.

In places where Roman institutions collapsed (Britain, the Balkans, Hungary) barbarians replaced them with wholly new institutions, and their languages were able to spread to the masses.
Didn't Roman bureaucracy existed until 10th Century in Germanic Italy ?
 
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Why did Barbarian conquorers adopt the languages of the peoples they conquered in the former Roman empire?
Mostly because Barbarians themselves were heavily romanized : not just because they were really few among a large Roman population, not only because they were integrated within Roman institutions since the IVth century, but because they are a product of the Roman frontier since day one.
It's eventually down to Roman influence (indirect such as trade, direct such as subsides) that tribes and human groups of various origin (even if mostly Germanic) formed as distinct peoples.

And once these entered in Romania, they entered within Roman frames (at least culturally/institutionally wise). Franks were chosen as master of both militas in the IVth century, for exemple. Then, when foedi remained the only existing inheritor of imperium in western Romania, they basically inherited Roman administration that was (of course) Latin-speaking.

What could lead to Romans adopting barbarian languages?
You'd need not just a fall of Roman state, but as well Roman civilisation so utterly complete that it would impact Barbarians all the same.
See, IOTL, Romans did most of what they could to pass themselves as Barbarians, up to literally inventing identitarian features that would make Plastic Paddies look like authentic Hibernians.

Why did barbarian languages prevail in some parts of the former Roman Empire? For example
Mostly because Roans structures already collapsed on their own already.
It's especially obvious for Britain and Illyricum/Upper Danube, altough for different reasons : Roman-British structures collapsed in the Vth century due to relative dependence on the army and weak municipes; Illyricum was barely inhabited in spite of its strategical importance and remained relatively empty. The survival of Romance in Illyricum is, nevertheless, attested while it was not for Britain.

Rhineland is more of a special case, as the linguistical border was certainly not clear before the Xth century : as @The Professor will likely add, Western Germanic dialects eren't really distinguishable from others, and when Franks ceased to use Frankish after the VIth in Gaul, it's likely to me that Franks on the Rhine (especially on the other side of the Rhine, where they were relatively few, still largely pagan) went closer to speeches used by peoples like Thuringians, Alamans, Frisians and Saxons which were relatively closer to what they spoke themselves, eventually forming with them dialectal ensembles in German. But giving the survival of Romance in Rhineland (especially in Moselle), I think the last blow was the political separation of Rhineland from the rest of Gaul in the collapse of Carolingia.

Could Arabic and Turkish be described as barbarian languages compared to the languages they conquered?
Arabic had a long written and literary tradition before they conquered Near East and Africa, so its relative cultural independence would make it different.
Turkish might be a better comparison.
 
Didn't Roman bureocracy existed until 10th Century in Germanic Italy ?
@Carp will be better fit answering this, but I'd say that while you had rest of imperial bureaucracy, this was ended by the rise of Carolingian feudality, from which administration/landowning/benefices were almost systematically mixed which was not the case under, say, Merovingians or Lombards (AFAIK in the last case) except in latter periods (and for Merovingians, mostly because Carolingians already dominated these matters)..
 

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See, IOTL, Romans did most of what they could to pass themselves as Barbarians, up to literally inventing identitarian features
Can you expand on this point? I have read that the Roman army along the frontier adopted barbarian styles and war cries, although that's about as specific as I know.
 
Rhineland is more of a special case, as the linguistical border was certainly not clear before the Xth century : as @The Professor will likely add, Western Germanic dialects eren't really distinguishable from others, and when Franks ceased to use Frankish after the VIth in Gaul, it's likely to me that Franks on the Rhine (especially on the other side of the Rhine, where they were relatively few, still largely pagan) went closer to speeches used by peoples like Thuringians, Alamans, Frisians and Saxons which were relatively closer to what they spoke themselves, eventually forming with them dialectal ensembles in German. But giving the survival of Romance in Rhineland (especially in Moselle), I think the last blow was the political separation of Rhineland from the rest of Gaul in the collapse of Carolingia.
I'll add to this that what made the Rhine such a special case is that it was less a barrier than other borders between Roman and Not-Roman administration. It appears to me that its linguistic fluidity between Romance and Germanic related to what administration was in charge and since that flipped a lot so did the lingua franca to the extent the populace was probably highly bilingual. Once the border and administration stabilised so did the language.
The Rhine's use as a trade route too will have accelerated the establishment of a language continuum along it, similar to how the North Sea coast did, ending up with a Frankish-Saxon-Aleman triangle that's more well known as Dutch-LowSaxon-HighGerman today.
It's probably worth mentioning that thanks to the migrations the Frisians of today are mostly the descendant of continental Angles rather than the probable more Frankish Frisians of Roman times, certainly linguistically anyway.
 
Can you expand on this point? I have read that the Roman army along the frontier adopted barbarian styles and war cries, although that's about as specific as I know.
There's probably three things to distinguish.

- Roman army, as it got more barbarized (altough it was already a thing with the heavy use of auxiliaries) tended to use some practices used by Barbarians, such as repetitively hitting your sword with your shield, warcries, "elevating" chiefs on a shield, etc.

- Barbarian influence from defeated Barbarians settled in the Empire (and not just at the border) as auxiliaries/manpower, such as laeti (even if the practice is significantly older) in a first time, and then as foedi in a second time which widespread some Barbarian uses and customs.

- The hegemony of Barbarian identity (which was technically set on a political level in the Vth century before the collapse : you were Barbarian and not a Roman if you ultimately obeyed to a king/petty-king and not the Roman state) led to a problem : as Barbarians which were already importantly romanized and integrating Roman people even before 460's (would it be only as slaves, but that was far from the only way in) AND ruling and integrating Romano-hypenathed provincial elite...Well, it became harder to really spot who was a Barbarian and who was not.
So, Barbarians/Romans pulled several identitarian features such as weapons, histories, laws, clothes and customs that were supposed to be cultural markers.
To give an example, fransiscas were unknown among Franks until the VIth before they looked at what eastern peoples did used, their ethnic history is about how they are actually Trojans, Salic Law is basically the Roman law on foedi, they created Barbarian clothes out of whatever they found Louis-XIV style, and let mustaches grow because Romans thought it was how Barbarians were supposed to look like.

It's not to say that significant and genuine Germanic influence didn't existed, far from it, and it had an important impact on post-imperial Roman society. But there's a lot of stuff that amount to how Romans disguised themselves as Barbarians, with some exception (especially in Aquitaine and Italy). For instance, the city of Rheims rebelled itself in the VIth to not pay taxes, arguing they were Franks and not fully taxable.

I'll add to this that what made the Rhine such a special case is that it was less a barrier than other borders between Roman and Not-Roman administration. It appears to me that its linguistic fluidity between Romance and Germanic related to what administration was in charge and since that flipped a lot so did the lingua franca to the extent the populace was probably highly bilingual. Once the border and administration stabilised so did the language.
I think that rather a stabilised administration (it doesn't seem Merovingian administration was less stressed in Rhineland), it's (at least in a last time) about chanceries and political-cultural-trade centers : until the IXth, these were all set in Gaul, but after Carolingia went down, several (would it be only trough monasteries and the inclusion of peripheries such as Bavaria) were not and especially the prestigious Ottonian centers. One could argue that the growing importance of Frisia as trade center might make this being an earlier process, it's true.

It's probably worth mentioning that thanks to the migrations the Frisians of today are mostly the descendant of continental Angles rather than the probable more Frankish Frisians of Roman times, certainly linguistically anyway.
Giving that you had, at least materially, a great continuity between Rhine and Danemark until the VIth century, even this distinction may not be hugely relevant.
 
I'll add to this that what made the Rhine such a special case is that it was less a barrier than other borders between Roman and Not-Roman administration. It appears to me that its linguistic fluidity between Romance and Germanic related to what administration was in charge and since that flipped a lot so did the lingua franca to the extent the populace was probably highly bilingual. Once the border and administration stabilised so did the language.
The Rhine's use as a trade route too will have accelerated the establishment of a language continuum along it, similar to how the North Sea coast did, ending up with a Frankish-Saxon-Aleman triangle that's more well known as Dutch-LowSaxon-HighGerman today.
It's probably worth mentioning that thanks to the migrations the Frisians of today are mostly the descendant of continental Angles rather than the probable more Frankish Frisians of Roman times, certainly linguistically anyway.

No they're not, the Angles dwelled on the Peninsula Angln in Schleswig , the Frisian have never dwelled in that region, and the Frisian settlement along the Jutish Wadden Sea seems to have been relative late settlements. The two groups was simply just closely related tribal groups.
 
No they're not, the Angles dwelled on the Peninsula Angln in Schleswig , the Frisian have never dwelled in that region, and the Frisian settlement along the Jutish Wadden Sea seems to have been relative late settlements. The two groups was simply just closely related tribal groups.
It appears that the northern-western germanic migrations were made by steps : it's known that Saxons and Jutes settlers were present along the Gallic and Frisian shore (most probably Angles as well) and that they played a role of migrating transmission after the VIth toward British Isles, which wasn't only a direct maritime move (hence why Frisians and Franks are also mentioned as part of the Vth century settlers in Britain).
In fact, Frisian medieval ethnicity is a real mix-up of various groups, with these aforementioned and ancient Frisii.
 
No they're not, the Angles dwelled on the Peninsula Angln in Schleswig , the Frisian have never dwelled in that region, and the Frisian settlement along the Jutish Wadden Sea seems to have been relative late settlements. The two groups was simply just closely related tribal groups.
I know who the Angles were. In the 5th C some of them settled the recently unpopulated Frisian coast and became some of the ancestors of the modern Frisians.
 
I know who the Angles were. In the 5th C some of them settled the recently unpopulated Frisian coast and became some of the ancestors of the modern Frisians.
It might even have began earlier, in the context of Barbarian piracy in North Sea and the Channel in the late IIIrd century. If the theory about a Saxon settlement along the Saxon shore is true (which I think it is, but there's room for debate), it wouldn't be surprising.
 
Well yes that too but the Frisian coast suffered a lot of flooding from the 3rd.
The situation wasn't that better by the Vth century tough, and the Dane raids and advance might have increased migrations even to not that hospitable regions. Eastern England wasn't that less "wet" either.
Now I agree we're talking about a more limited settlement, but Northern Netherlands didn't really knew the disappearance of habitation of the southern part.
A good reason for fixation of population in Frisia compared to the IIIrd century tough was that both Frankish rise (which may have motivated some to go in Britain for opportunities) and thanks to maintained contact between settlers in Britain and in Frisia, the growing importance of Frisian trade (One can wonder that, if without Gothic Wars, we couldn't have ended with an earlier Frisian "thalassocracy")
 
It appears that the northern-western germanic migrations were made by steps : it's known that Saxons and Jutes settlers were present along the Gallic and Frisian shore (most probably Angles as well) and that they played a role of migrating transmission after the VIth toward British Isles, which wasn't only a direct maritime move (hence why Frisians and Franks are also mentioned as part of the Vth century settlers in Britain).
In fact, Frisian medieval ethnicity is a real mix-up of various groups, with these aforementioned and ancient Frisii.

The Angles was very distinct from the Frisian even with the similarity in grammar, that can be seen that while continental Anglish was assimilated into Danish as several South Jutish dialects, the North Frisian which was under similar pressure didn't, instead it stayed a distinct language with a lot of Danish loanwords. Whether the Frisians are descendents of the ancient Frisii are pretty irrelevant to the fact, that they wasn't Angles.
 
The Angles was very distinct from the Frisian
Archeologically, there's no real way to differentiate them in the period between the IIIrd to VIth centuries. Or with other north-western Germanic groups for that matter.

the North Frisian which was under similar pressure didn't, instead it stayed a distinct language with a lot of Danish loanwords.
By this logic, Scandinavian settlers from Norway and Danemark that mixed-up with the whole of Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Frisians and Franks in the Vth century should have formed specific entities or at the very least formed distinct languages. Of course, they did not, and the Scandinavian element is a latter happenance in the formation of English language.

(I'd add that it seems, but I didn't look into it myself to be honest, that the Northern/Western linguistic division wasn't this set in the Vth century.)

The same goes for North Frisian : the Danish element is a latter happenance compared to what happened in Jutland
It's worth considering that North Frisian was far more connected (trough trade) with England and Frisia than with Danemark and if something, its earlier "outer" influence was rather German than Danish.

Whether the Frisians are descendents of the ancient Frisii are pretty irrelevant to the fact, that they wasn't Angles.
They were, in part : medieval Frisians are known to have been mixed up with a lot of migrating groups since the IIIrd century. Angles are, admittedly, not specifically mentioned but to exclude these would be arbitrary : an absence of proof isn't proof.
 
Archeologically, there's no real way to differentiate them in the period between the IIIrd to VIth centuries. Or with other north-western Germanic groups for that matter.


By this logic, Scandinavian settlers from Norway and Danemark that mixed-up with the whole of Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Frisians and Franks in the Vth century should have formed specific entities or at the very least formed distinct languages. Of course, they did not, and the Scandinavian element is a latter happenance in the formation of English language.
The same goes for North Frisian : the Danish element is a latter happenance compared to what happened in Jutland
It's worth considering that North Frisian was far more connected (trough trade) with England and Frisia than with Danemark and if something, its earlier "outer" influence was rather German than Danish.


They were, in part : medieval Frisians are known to have been mixed up with a lot of migrating groups since the IIIrd century. Angles are, admittedly, not specifically mentioned but to exclude these would be arbitrary : an absence of proof isn't proof.

North Frisia was placed near the first major Danish trading center; Ribe a town who stayed one of the most important Danish towns until the creation of the duchy of Sønderjylland (Schleswig) and even after that time much of the North Frisian island was part of Ribe Len/Amt (county) as the Royal Enclaves. So in fact much of the North Frisian Islands was direct ruled by Copenhagen far longer than most of Schleswig which was ruled by local dukes or stadtholders.

220px-S%C3%B8nderjyllandKongerigskeEnklaver.png


They was also no more connected to England than the North Jutish West Coast where Jutish a close genetic relative to Anglish was spoken and assimilated into Danish as the West Jutish dialects, and these was far more isolated from the rest of Denmark by the large Heath, while the North Frisian Islands was far mores connected through the rivers Kongeåen and Eider, Both which was home to major trade route it's mo accident that the two major early Danish trading towns Ribe and Hedeby was placed by these rivers, which connected the Baltic with the North Sea.
 
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