Automotive WI - Citroen without Peugeot

[Masked Grizzly]

In OTL a number of blunders by Citroen (along with Maserati) almost led to the company's demise, with Citroen later being acquired by Peugeot and Maserati being sold off to De Tomaso.

What if Citroen made better decisions to prevent themselves going bankrupt or holding out an independent carmaker a bit longer (via tie-ups / joint-ventures) such as amongst other PODs:

• Not getting involved with the Wankel engine together with NSU in establishing Comotor
  
• Producing a version of the Citroen C60 prototype instead of Project F / Project AP that almost helped ruin the company.
  
• Producing a production version of the Citroen Project Y prototype as an early Citroen Visa of sorts, which would have likely shared a number of components with Fiat.
• Developing a thoroughly updated version of the Citroen 2CV along the lines of the OTL Citroen 2CV Hatchback or Citroen 2CV Super prototypes, likely featuring 950-1300/1400cc+ Flat-4 plus enlarged 700-850cc Flat-Twin engines.
  
• The Citroen CX either being powered by roughly existing engines (plus Maserati V6/V8s) or a Flat-6 (possibly in-house or co-developed with the Flat-6 NSU once considered for the NSU Ro80). Or given the CX's alleged roots as a joint-project with Lancia, instead feature Lancia Gamma Flat-4 engines which in prototype 2.5-litre 16v turbocharged form also produced 170+ hp (which was also considered for the Lancia Montecarlo).
  
• Possibly collaborating with other carmakers such as Fiat (as was the case in OTL), Alfa Romeo and maybe even Porsche (the latter in terms of developing modern water-cooled Boxer engines for Citroen).

Peugeot's OTL acquisition of Citroen (and later Chrysler Europe) also had a negative impact on the company, causing them to totally reconsider their ambitions and entire product plan with many projects being cancelled (or significantly delayed) as a result aside from the Peugeot 604 thanks to the PRV V6 joint-venture with Renault and Volvo.

The Peugeot 305 was one casualty as it was to originally to feature an all-new platform, 5-speed gearbox and a 1600cc engine (possibly the PSA XU) in Project J18. However the later D4 Project that eventually became the Peugeot 305 carried over the Peugeot 304 platform with the 1.6 PSA XU engine later appearing in 1982. It also may be case a smaller platform derived the J18 Project was intended to replace the Peugeot 204 though that speculation on my part.

Another potential butterfly with Peugeot sans Citroen, would be the Citroen AX being instead conceived as a direct replacement for the Peugeot 104 under the Peugeot 105 name, since the OTL Peugeot 205 was itself conceived to be larger compared to the Peugeot 104 when the M24 project began in the mid-1970s.

 

[Archibald]

I had this idea 5 years ago. The main problem is that Citroen boss in the 60's was an old, authoritarian idiot with a touch of megalomania, fueled by the legend of the DS. I'll try to dig his name. Throw him under a bus would be a good start.

Pierre Bercot.
https://www.google.fr/search?q="citroen""Pierre+Bercot"&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR7c_PtujXAhVK1BoKHdNRAZIQ_AUIECgB&biw=1366&bih=635

Citroen was kind of blinded by the immense popular successes of both DS and 2CV. The cars between these two suffered a lot.

The reason why Peugeot and Citroen were married relates to Michelin. They are historically linked to Citroen since the 1920's. In the 60's Michelin had 51% of Citroen shares but was already annoyed by Bercot suicidal strategy and autoritarism.

After 1971 Michelin sacked Bercot, put a Rollier of them in his place, and considered selling its 51% to Fiat.
G. Agnelli was all for it, but the French state went nuts and vetoed the deal. Without Fiat and without Michelin, Citroen went bankrupt and was saved by the French state and Peugeot in a unhappy, forced marriage.

From memory, Citroen seek alliances in the 60's, even with Peugeot (10 years before !) and even Fiat, but Bercot autoritarism did not helped.

I wondered why Citroen had bought Maserati. That sound completely surreal, even today. The reason was that Citroen needed a V6 but Peugeot, Renault and... Volvo did the PRV together, which was a V8 before the 1973 oil shock, and was cut of two cylinders. Citroen sought a V6 elsewhere in Europe, but there were not many of them, so they went for... Maserati. and of course they bought the entire company instead of just having a licence for their V6 ! The result was the DS successor, the Citroen SM, a wonder, but a money black hole.

An obvious POD would be Citroen jumping into the PRV bandwagon, be it a V6 or a V8. somewhat ironically after Peugeot bought Citroen, they got access to the PRV for the XM and other cars. Making the entire Maserati venture even more absurd !

Another interesting POD might be that Citroen get in touch with Rover and get their V6 (the one in the 3500).

Or any other European V6 or V8 but NOT Maserati and do not buy the company.

Citroen also sunk a crapload of money in wankels, including an helicopter !

 

[Archibald]

More detail about Citroen.

What if Citroen made better decisions to prevent themselves going bankrupt or holding out an independent carmaker a bit longer (via tie-ups / joint-ventures) such as amongst other PODs:

• Not getting involved with the Wankel engine together with NSU in establishing Comotor

• Producing a version of the Citroen C60 prototype instead of Project F / Project AP that almost helped ruin the company.

• Producing a production version of the Citroen Project Y prototype as an early Citroen Visa of sorts, which would have likely shared a number of components with Fiat.

• Developing a thoroughly updated version of the Citroen 2CV along the lines of the OTL Citroen 2CV Hatchback or Citroen 2CV Super prototypes, likely featuring 950-1300/1400cc+ Flat-4 plus enlarged 700-850cc Flat-Twin engines.

• The Citroen CX either being powered by roughly existing engines (plus Maserati V6/V8s) or a Flat-6 (possibly in-house or co-developed with the Flat-6 NSU once considered for the NSU Ro80). Or given the CX's alleged roots as a joint-project with Lancia, instead feature Lancia Gamma Flat-4 engines which in prototype 2.5-litre 16v turbocharged form also produced 170+ hp (which was also considered for the Lancia Montecarlo).

• Possibly collaborating with other carmakers such as Fiat (as was the case in OTL), Alfa Romeo and maybe even Porsche (the latter in terms of developing modern water-cooled Boxer engines for Citroen).

Excellent ideas. Michelin would have really enjoyed them and, as you suggest, Citroen could have survided as an independant car maker.

You need a POD between 1965 (the failed fusion with Peugeot) and 1967 (the year Bercot bought Maserati, and also the deal with NSU)

I think a good POD would be that, in 1966, irritated by Bercot failure of dealing with Peugeot and the failure of the fusion, Michelin bang their fit on the table and sacks Bercot. OTL, bercot successor in 1971 was François Rollier, from Michelin. So let's say Rollier come 5 years earlier and clean the Bercot mess.
- No Maserati
- No NSU, nor Wankel, nor wankel helicopter
- The Citroen SM will survive as the DS successor only with the PRV, otherwise it is dead
- Panhard https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_24
- Citroen must fill the gap between DS and 2CV with coherent developments (as you describe, including with Fiat help > 127.)

http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/projet-f/projet-f.html
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/prototypes/c60/c-60.html

I would say, transfers the SM to Panhard as the successor (or derivative) of the 24 and DS, with a PRV engine. This allows Citroen to concetrate on everything else - medium and low.

http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/ds/DS_Cit_Panhard_Proto.html

http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/csc-features/the-french-connection-douvrin-v6

Late in the develoment, however, the 1973 fuel crisis hit, the market for smaller-engined cars increased and the plans were rapidly revised. As a result, 2664cc would be the initial swept area for a V6 version of the stillborn V8, not least beacuse in France there was already a precedent in production. The Citroën SM used Maserati’s V8 with two cylinders lopped off the end.

Unbelievable. I often wondered why the PRV had been amputated like this: well, its because Citroen also butchered their Maserati V8 into a V6.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_PRV_engine

In 1966, Peugeot and Renault entered a cooperative agreement to manufacture common components. The first joint subsidiary, La Française de Mécanique (also called Compagnie Française de Mécanique or simply FM) was launched in 1969. The FM factory was built in Douvrin near Lens in northern France. The PRV engines are sometimes referred to as "Douvrin" engines, though that name is more commonly applied to a family of straight-4s produced at the same time.

In 1971, Volvo joined Peugeot and Renault in the creation of the PRV company, a public limited company (plc) in which each of the three manufacturers owned an equal portion. The company originally planned to build V8 engines, although these were later scrapped in favor of a smaller and more fuel-efficient V6.

The PRV engine could be seen as a V8 with two missing cylinders, having a 90 degree angle between cylinder banks, rather than the customary 60, but with crankpins being 120 degrees apart. The Maserati V6 of the Citroën SM followed a remarkably similar pattern of development.

 

[merlin]

Problem is, that with competition in the international car market, Citroen could not have survived as a small independent can manufacturer. And as been said already, the French Government wouldn't allow foreign ownership.
The takeover, by Peugeot solved a few problems - it reduced Citroen costs, by having access to a common parts pool = equals lower prices from suppliers. Provides finance for future models. While for Peugeot enabled them to rebadge Citroen cars into Peugeot ones e.g. Peugeot 104.
I think PSA had ideas of making Citroen their quirky, experimental brand - you had to be a bit quirky to go for a 2CV!

I used to work for a car dealership, which had the Chrysler (UK) franchise. It was the UK Chrysler franchise network that expanded Peugeot UK sales. When the 205 arrived on the scene, sales took off! I remember my Parts Manager Boss went from a Talbot Solara (Alpine saloon) to Peugeot 505 company car. I liked the 305, not sure the 309 was an improvement, the 306 was under-rated, more so the 307. And the 405 - great car - especially the diesels, 506 - wrong name should have been 406.

 

[Archibald]

Depends. Citroen wasn't small by any means. They lapsed behind Peugeot and Renault only by the mid-60's, and then again, because of that stupid Bercot.

While Peugeot and Citroen were, supposedly a single PSA entity, in the 80's, the realty was Citroen remained mostly independant, if only because his clients were not Peugeot's. Citroen had a special flavor of advanced technology and sophistication Peugeot never had. hence a case could be made there were three majors, not two, in 1980 France car industry.

What I mean was,wether independant or not independant from Peugeot, there was room for Citroen on the French market of the 80's.

Citroen could have taken Simca (the French branch of Chrysler europe) instead of Peugeot. They would have proceded as they did for Berliet trucks in the 50's, and Panhard in 1967: resistance is futile. Assimilation.
By the way, Simca had been created by Fiat. So maybe Citroen and Fiat could use Simca as a bridge for extended cooperation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simca
wow. I didn't realized how big Simca was in 70's France.

What is sure is what Peugeot did of Simca OTL was amazingly stupid, if not criminal.
To their excuse, they were just not ready to takeover Chrysler Europe in 1978, only four years after Citroen.

There is also the case of Jean Luc Lagardere Matra, who ended doing the Espace with Renault, after Peugeot - Citroen (stupidly) rejected the project. ITTL Matra could propose the Espace to either Renault or Peugeot or Citroen. Then whoever get the Espace, get OTL Renault bread and butter from 1984 to... well, to today and beyond. Espace > Megane > Twingo

 

[merlin]

The only Simca I can remember was the Simca 1100 van, (had a crash in the hi-top version) and the Rancher (poor man's Range Rover). Simca didn't have a UK presence pre-the takeover. At First Peugeot re-branded Chrysler UK under the Talbot name - Talbot Sunbeam, Talbot Samba (better than the 104), and the vans Talbot Express. But the re-branding was short-lived - future cars were all Peugeot, as were the vans (Partner, Expert (Euro-taxi), and Boxer.
Citroen vehicles while incorporating many Peugeot commonalities had different bodies
It'll be interesting to see over time PSA do to GM Europe!

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Ideally would like to still have Citroen keep Maserati and have the latter developed the V6, which was in fact designed from scratch by Giulio Alfieri despite rumors to the contrary yet capable of being assembled on existing V8 tooling hence explaining it was easy for Citroen to develop the 260+hp 4-litre V8 (with possible scope for a Slant-4). Perhaps Citroen could profit from Fiat acquiring Maserati earlier on and developing an ATL Maserati Quattroporte III to replace the OTL Fiat 130 as well as spawn a better executed Maserati Buturbo (the ATL version not necessarily featuring twin-turbos).

With Panhard, Citroen could have probably carried over the Flat-Twin and the Flat-4 from the Panhard AML which was considered for the Panhard 24 along with spawning 4-door and estate versions of the latter prior to discontinuing the marque.

In better circumstances Citroen could have probably made the F / AP Projects work, however the Citroen C60 prototype would have probably been a better bet and could have even produced a fastback hatchback variant as well as easily carrying over into an ATL Citroen GS/GSA. Citroen entering a cooperative agreement with say Alfa Romeo could allow the ATL Citroen Visa to be derived from a shortened Alfa Romeo Alfasud platform and components along with some components from Fiat. An interesting direction for Citroen via the ECO 2000 prototypes would be for the Flat-Twin and Flat-4 engines to be water-cooled (one of the first prototypes did feature a water-cooled 704cc Flat-Twin), utilize the Alfa Romeo Flat-4 engines (though that was be too straightforward) or make use of 3-cylinder versions of the Fiat FIRE engine.

Rover never produced a production V6 beyond an IOE engine with pre-war roots, while Rover did not have the production capacity to produce the Rover V8 to other large manufacturers.

Peugeot themselves were previously the French equivalent of the Mercedes-Benz until after WW2 and even considered developing a V8 for what became the Peugeot 404 (along with Citroen-like hydropneumatic suspension), they also sought to prevent Citroen from producing anymore quirky cars in OTL as was the case with the Citroen Project E Prototype. Even Volvo in OTL prior to becoming involved with the PRV project had their own engine plans including a Redblock derived V8, so it would be interesting to see the ATL PRV V6/V8 engines being limited to just Peugeot and Renault.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

It also seems that Citroen developed a water-cooled 95 hp 1654cc Flat-4 for the L Project that eventually became the Citroen CX, though am not sure whether the engine was designed by Citroen themselves (which could potentially fit into the Citroen GS/GSA) or based on the Lancia Gamma engine.

 

[phx1138]

For those who don't read French: Panhard 24

 

[Masked Grizzly]

For those who don't read French: Panhard 24

The Citroen C60 prototype could have easily replaced the Panhard 24, though could argue that Citroen should have also thoroughly developed the Panhard 24 by including Flat-4 (from the Panhard AML), 4-door, estate and cabriolet bodystyles from the outset yet things were not so straightforward, since by the mid-1960s Citroen faced a choice between using the capacity of the Ivry plant to increase further the output of the popular Citroen 2CV vans or developing the Panhard 24 (whose production was halved by 1966 compared to previous years) and perpetuating the Panhard brand, with the 2CV vans winning.

 

[phx1138]

The Citroen C60 prototype could have easily replaced the Panhard 24, though could argue that Citroen should have also thoroughly developed the Panhard 24 by including Flat-4 (from the Panhard AML), 4-door, estate and cabriolet bodystyles from the outset yet things were not so straightforward, since by the mid-1960s Citroen faced a choice between using the capacity of the Ivry plant to increase further the output of the popular Citroen 2CV vans or developing the Panhard 24 (whose production was halved by 1966 compared to previous years) and perpetuating the Panhard brand, with the 2CV vans winning.

Just on looks, I'd have kept the 24 in preference to the C60. Could they have been built on a common platform?

In ref Simca, let me also add, (AIUI) they produced a hemi version of the 60hp 136ci Ford flathead V8, which was on sale in Brazil as late as the '80s... The idea of these being available in Europe, or as crate engines...

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Just on looks, I'd have kept the 24 in preference to the C60. Could they have been built on a common platform?

In ref Simca, let me also add, (AIUI) they produced a hemi version of the 60hp 136ci Ford flathead V8, which was on sale in Brazil as late as the '80s... The idea of these being available in Europe, or as crate engines...

Doubt it was possible to build both the Citroen C60 and Panhard 24 on the same platform, unfortunately Panhard were in a bad position once they allowed Citroen to gradually take control of the company and falling sales of the 24 did not help matters (though again Citroen could have done a better job in allowing the Flat-4, 4-door and other variants).

 

[phx1138]

Doubt it was possible to build both the Citroen C60 and Panhard 24 on the same platform.

I'm presuming that's because the proposed C60 is a lot smaller. I had in mind badge engineering rather than a literal transfer of body or tooling...

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I'm presuming that's because the proposed C60 is a lot smaller. I had in mind badge engineering rather than a literal transfer of body or tooling...

One of the main obstacles is Citroen was not a large company and the other as Archibald has mentioned is Pierre Bercot, who basically stunted the Panhard 24 due to perceiving it as overlapping with the larger Citroen DS, he vetoed both the Flat-4 as well as the 4-door and other variants.

 

[phx1138]

One of the main obstacles is Citroen was not a large company and the other as Archibald has mentioned is Pierre Bercot, who basically stunted the Panhard 24 due to perceiving it as overlapping with the larger Citroen DS, he vetoed both the Flat-4 as well as the 4-door and other variants.

I'm presuming Bercot was thrown under a bus, so there's more freedom to build a more suitable *24. If it's serving a market segment nearer the DS, maybe it should (could?) share the DS platform, instead. Unless Citroën just drops the marque entire...which might boost Citroën sales.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I'm presuming Bercot was thrown under a bus, so there's more freedom to build a more suitable *24. If it's serving a market segment nearer the DS, maybe it should (could?) share the DS platform, instead. Unless Citroën just drops the marque entire...which might boost Citroën sales.

Citroen might as well drop the Panhard marque though not before making the Panhard 24 the Flat-4 4-door (etc) it should have been from the outset, especially since Citroen could have benefited from carrying over components from Panhard to use on future Citroens.

Either that or Citroen later decides to revive the Panhard marque by creating a new model derived from the Citroen SM / Maserati Quattroporte II platform, the downside being the upcoming 1973 fuel crisis though Citroen should be able to survive this period provided the Citroen C60 appears beforehand during the early/mid-60s and Citroen makes better decisions compared to OTL amongst other PODs.

 

[Archibald]

The only Simca I can remember was the Simca 1100 van, (had a crash in the hi-top version) and the Rancher (poor man's Range Rover). Simca didn't have a UK presence pre-the takeover. At First Peugeot re-branded Chrysler UK under the Talbot name - Talbot Sunbeam, Talbot Samba (better than the 104), and the vans Talbot Express. But the re-branding was short-lived - future cars were all Peugeot, as were the vans (Partner, Expert (Euro-taxi), and Boxer.
Citroen vehicles while incorporating many Peugeot commonalities had different bodies
It'll be interesting to see over time PSA do to GM Europe!

My father first car was a Simca 1100 (before he become an Alfa Romeo driver). The Simca 1000 was an earlier variant, and there is a famous spoof song in French (hide the kids !) "Je te prendrai nue, dans la Simca 1000" (les chevaliers du fiel)

The sheer absurdity of Peugeot strategy with Talbot and Citroen: by 1983 the Samba, 104 and Visa were all competing with each others. Including on the French market. It is hardly surprising Talbot did not survived.

 

[Archibald]

I stick to my gun: not only NSU (as you mentions) but also Maserati ventures were industrial suicide.
http://boitierrouge.com/2015/07/07/maserati-khamsin-la-malediction-citroen/

Unbelievable: Citroen talked about a V6 / V8 with Volvo, just before the Swedish went to Peugeot and Renault to make PRV.

http://citropersoboulot.typepad.com/mon_weblog/2008/05/tmoignage-je-me.html

Les émissaires techniques qui avaient été envoyés pour évaluer Maserati étaient revenus assez épouvantés par ce qu'ils avaient vu qui s'apparentait plus à un garage qu'à un constructeur automobile.

1965: Peugeot is furious. Citroen want to Panhard them, that is, complete buyout, followed by assimilation. Resistance is futile. As he rants over those stupid guys at Peugeot, Pierre Bercot is run over by a bus. Michelin replace him with a director of them.

1966
Michelin takes four major decisions
- screw Maserati
- screw Wankel and NSU
- Join Peugeot and Renault in Douvrin and get new these new and powerful engines for the DS
- replace the Ami 6 and Ami 8 as soon as possible: as a stopgap, get help from FIAT

1967
The DS replacement is postponed per lack of engine, then transfered to Panhard to get some "24" DNA.
Panhard will become Citroen luxury brand.
http://boitierrouge.com/2015/08/24/super-panhard-24-ct-la-sportive-abordable-refusee-par-citroen/

1969
Volvo joins the Douvrin venture, and the four contructors decides to build a Douvrin V8: the PRCV
Panhard is given the go-ahead for the DS successor with the future Douvrin V8.

1974
Citroen is not in very good shape, but no bankrupcy either. Fiat filled the gap between the 2CV and DS; the later benefitted from the douvrin engines.
Panhard has two models, the "super 24" and the OTL SM (with a different name and a V8)

1978
Citroen take over SIMCA, part of Chrysler Europe, and together with FIAT, they build medium size cars of excellent quality.

 

[merlin]

But why the fixation with v8 engines, especially with rising fuel prices, sales of big cars didn't justify it. With Talbot - the Tagora bombed, Peugeot 604 didn't do much better, nor the 605, Citroen I think was the XM.
Even Toyota found that it needed a separate brand for a big 'luxury' model.

 

[Archibald]

You have a point. France got restrictive laws after 1945 that killed all the luxury car makers - Bugatti, Hotchkiss, Delahaye, Delage, later Facel Vega - all dead.

This said,
Italy, Great Britain and Germany all saved their luxury car brands bfeore and after 1973 and France was willing to get into that market (and still willing even today... )

Getting Volvo help was crucial since France had made no engine bigger than a 4 cylinder since 1939.
OTL V6 PRV was the first atempt, the only one, and lasted until 2002, 30 years and counting, it was completely obsolete.

With Talbot - the Tagora bombed, Peugeot 604 didn't do much better, nor the 605, Citroen I think was the XM.

they bombed because they only got shitty engines in comparison with BMW, Mercedes and Audi and Porsche.