Austria-Hungary-Croatia

[Portucale]

Most trialist proposals in Austria-Hungary were for Croatia to become a third crown. Many politicians wanted to unify the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, the Kingdom of Dalmatia and often the Condominium of Bosnia and Herzegovina, too. How could this proposal have been accepted? The biggest problem is for Hungary to accept losing Croatia-Slavonia but that was probably the only territory the Hungarians would have been willing to lose. Croatia-Slavonia was part of Transleithania but not of Hungary proper and had few Hungarians. Hungary's main reason for wanting to keep Croatia-Slavonia was for sea access.
Some argue Franz Ferdinand would have done it if he had lived.
If it went forward, what would Austria-Hungary-Croatia look like? Serbia would definitely have been angry at the creation of the Kingdom of Croatia if Bosnia and Herzegovina was included.
Would the Bosnian Muslims have accepted being part of the Kingdom of Croatia?

 

[Fehérvári]

This "Greater Croatia" would be probaly realised within Transleithania first. It would gradually increase its autonomy from Hungary until the connection between them almost becomes but a mere formality. This would require time, however. At the same time, I could imagine Galicia and the Bohemian Lands going through similar processes.

Would the Bosnian Muslims have accepted being part of the Kingdom of Croatia?

Muslims could be seen as partners to counter Serbs in the legislature, but it would all depend on Croat conduct and the state of foreign policy.

Serbia would definitely have been angry at the creation of the Kingdom of Croatia if Bosnia and Herzegovina was included.

Quite possibly. It would certainly frustrate advocates of Serbian expansion.

 

[Portucale]

This "Greater Croatia" would be probaly realised within Transleithania first. It would gradually increase its autonomy from Hungary until the connection between them almost becomes but a mere formality. This would require time, however. At the same time, I could imagine Galicia and the Bohemian Lands going through similar processes.

Muslims could be seen as partners to counter Serbs in the legislature, but it would all depend on Croat conduct and the state of foreign policy.

Quite possibly. It would certainly frustrate advocates of Serbian expansion.

Could the Kingdom of Croatia cede East Herzegovina and the Bay of Kotor to Montenegro in order to drive Montenegro away from Serbia?

 

[Evil Crusader]

Could the Kingdom of Croatia cede East Herzegovina and the Bay of Kotor to Montenegro in order to drive Montenegro away from Serbia?

Major Powers don't just cede slices of their own land for relations, especially not along with one of their major naval harbors and most certainly not to achieve better relations with a fairly minor nation.

 

[Portucale]

Major Powers don't just cede slices of their own land for relations, especially not along with one of their major naval harbors and most certainly not to achieve better relations with a fairly minor nation.

The Bay of Kotor is probably too much but East Herzegovina was overwhelmingly Serb and of little value. It makes sense of the Kingdom of Croatia to get rid of it. Better relations with Montenegro are good for isolating Serbia diplomatically and reducing it as a threat.

 

[RutlandWeekdayTelevision]

Would the Bosnian Muslims have accepted being part of the Kingdom of Croatia?

Bosnian Muslims, more specifically the elite, were against Austro-Hungarian rule and advocated to go back to the Ottoman Empire even after the 1908 annexation. There were several reasons for this, most notably the fact that the Muslim elite was still the beneficiary of a de-facto serf system that wasn't properly abolished until 1911. They had a base with lower Muslim classes, and some Serbs declaratively wanted to go back to the Ottoman Empire (but only because it made unification with Serbia easier), but even then it would have been easy to maneuver around them.
They wouldn't like it at all, maybe more-so than joining Austria-Hungary in the first place, but their concerns would only be met depending on how generous the monarchy would be to them, since outside of their borders the influence of the Muslim ruling class was non-existent, unlike, say, Croatia, whose leadership was (relatively speaking) much more unified, well-educated and less vested in personal interests.

 

[DocJamore]

The Bay of Kotor is probably too much but East Herzegovina was overwhelmingly Serb and of little value. It makes sense of the Kingdom of Croatia to get rid of it.

You do not seem to understand the point Evil Crusader was making. Croatia would have no right to violate the Empire's Sovereignty to cede land to a foreign power. They could cede it to Austria who could then decide what to do with it, but ceding any land to a nation outside the Empire is going to have go through Austrian sovereignty and be done by Austria. If Austria-Hungary ever got to the point that it's interior nations could decide issues like violating its territorial integrity, the Empire would be basically on the brink of collapse.

 

[Portucale]

Bosnian Muslims, more specifically the elite, were against Austro-Hungarian rule and advocated to go back to the Ottoman Empire even after the 1908 annexation. There were several reasons for this, most notably the fact that the Muslim elite was still the beneficiary of a de-facto serf system that wasn't properly abolished until 1911. They had a base with lower Muslim classes, and some Serbs declaratively wanted to go back to the Ottoman Empire (but only because it made unification with Serbia easier), but even then it would have been easy to maneuver around them.
They wouldn't like it at all, maybe more-so than joining Austria-Hungary in the first place, but their concerns would only be met depending on how generous the monarchy would be to them, since outside of their borders the influence of the Muslim ruling class was non-existent, unlike, say, Croatia, whose leadership was (relatively speaking) much more unified, well-educated and less vested in personal interests.

Actually, by the time of World War I, the Bosnian Muslims were the most loyal group in Austria-Hungary. A lot of them served as soldiers in World War I.

 

[Evil Crusader]

You do not seem to understand the point Evil Crusader was making. Croatia would have no right to violate the Empire's Sovereignty to cede land to a foreign power. They could cede it to Austria who could then decide what to do with it, but ceding any land to a nation outside the Empire is going to have go through Austrian sovereignty and be done by Austria. If Austria-Hungary ever got to the point that it's interior nations could decide issues like violating its territorial integrity, the Empire would be basically on the brink of collapse.

Even if ceded of own free will, it would beckon the question of why is the large and strong Empire ceding land to two small neightbors it should, by all accounts, be able to order around even if the two work together - a major loss of face in itself. especially considering a major crisis was risked in order to force its acquisition.

 

[RutlandWeekdayTelevision]

Actually, by the time of World War I, the Bosnian Muslims were the most loyal group in Austria-Hungary. A lot of them served as soldiers in World War I.

I won't deny that, according to independent sources the Bosnian Muslims were quite well-respected in the AU army as well.
My point was regarding the elite during peace-time, not all Bosnian Muslims during all phases, I phrased this very badly. Many Muslim serfs were obviously happy to see the end of serfdom for instance. During the Austro-Hungarian period many incredibly necessary reforms were enacted as well as the beginning of industrialization, it wasn't all bad news, unless you're the member of said Muslim elite.

 

[Portucale]

You do not seem to understand the point Evil Crusader was making. Croatia would have no right to violate the Empire's Sovereignty to cede land to a foreign power. They could cede it to Austria who could then decide what to do with it, but ceding any land to a nation outside the Empire is going to have go through Austrian sovereignty and be done by Austria. If Austria-Hungary ever got to the point that it's interior nations could decide issues like violating its territorial integrity, the Empire would be basically on the brink of collapse.

Understood. I mistakently thought the Kingdom of Croatia would be allowed to cede land without the consent of Vienna.

Even if ceded of own free will, it would beckon the question of why is the large and strong Empire ceding land to two small neightbors it should, by all accounts, be able to order around even if the two work together - a major loss of face in itself. especially considering a major crisis was risked in order to force its acquisition.

Good point
Not to divert from the subject of the thread, but maybe Austria-Hungary should have ceded some land to Montenegro during the Bosnian Crisis.

 

[Vabasion]

Bosnian Muslims, more specifically the elite, were against Austro-Hungarian rule and advocated to go back to the Ottoman Empire even after the 1908 annexation. There were several reasons for this, most notably the fact that the Muslim elite was still the beneficiary of a de-facto serf system that wasn't properly abolished until 1911. They had a base with lower Muslim classes, and some Serbs declaratively wanted to go back to the Ottoman Empire (but only because it made unification with Serbia easier), but even then it would have been easy to maneuver around them.
They wouldn't like it at all, maybe more-so than joining Austria-Hungary in the first place, but their concerns would only be met depending on how generous the monarchy would be to them, since outside of their borders the influence of the Muslim ruling class was non-existent, unlike, say, Croatia, whose leadership was (relatively speaking) much more unified, well-educated and less vested in personal interests.

The elite loyal to the Ottomans escaped to Turkey at the onset of occupation. The ones that remained loyal to Ottomans were a minority and quiet. By and large the Bosnian nobility aligned with Austria Hungary who they saw as a benevolent Tsardom to serve and secure their future in.

Also why Croatia? Don’t Czechs and Slovaks outnumber them and also have far greater economic importance?

 

[Wendell]

You'd probably have to cede Galicia to Hungary as compensation and add Carniola and the Austrian Littoral to this third crown as well, so that it's really both crowns giving up something of substance.

 

[Portucale]

Also why Croatia? Don’t Czechs and Slovaks outnumber them and also have far greater economic importance?

Most trialist proposals in Austria-Hungary were for Croatia. The Croat majority areas were divided between the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, the Kingdom of Dalmatia and the Condominium of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 

[Portucale]

You'd probably have to cede Galicia to Hungary as compensation and add Carniola and the Austrian Littoral to this third crown as well, so that it's really both crowns giving up something of substance.

Would Hungary want Galicia? It was a money sink for Austria-Hungary. I just don't see Austria giving up the Austrian Littoral. The difference with the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia is that the Austrian Littoral was part of Austria while the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia was part of Transleithania but not of the Kingdom of Hungary.

 

[kalamona]

Most trialist proposals in Austria-Hungary were for Croatia. The Croat majority areas were divided between the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia, the Kingdom of Dalmatia and the Condominium of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Maybe, but the problems were not with the croats. The important question -and let's not mention internal Austrian and of course the evergreen hungarian things- were the czech question. They wanted their own ausgleich.

 

[Wendell]

Would Hungary want Galicia? It was a money sink for Austria-Hungary. I just don't see Austria giving up the Austrian Littoral. The difference with the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia is that the Austrian Littoral was part of Austria while the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia was part of Transleithania but not of the Kingdom of Hungary.

On the other hand, Transleithania included all of the lands that had been part of the Kingdom of Hungary previously, and the successors to St. Stephen ruled Croatia at least in name before the Hapsburgs did Austria as I recall.