Are there any other European countries, besides Britain, that could have could have conquered India?

longsword14

Banned
@Wendell
Your argument about the English having an inherently better method is false. More like the English had more incentives to colonise empty lands. France did not colonise N America and had problems with attracting people, had it not been so the demographic dominance of English speakers would not exist, France looked towards continental Europe while Britain looked towards outer expansion with none of the other Europeans powers having any interest or the coastline.
The current scenario of English as the world-language is more due to circumstances than any superior method (that and WWI,WWII causing American involvement in Europe).
 
lol france conquering India. This is the same france that in the 16th century was embroiled in fruitless wars with the hapsburgs and religious turmoil. The same france that in the 17th and 18th century basically fought constantly with the rest of europe. France in the 1760s following the seven year war was in no position to take over India. I mean France had much more important things to focus on like trying to conquer the Nethrlands for the upteenth time, or trying to push into Italy. They are a mess and do not have the resources till the 1800s to take india and by then the brits already got theire. Even in the 1800s napoleoanic france was too busy in europe. France could conquer india if they did not focus all there efforts in Europe but that is what they did and from a geographical standpoint was how they would beheave logically. Its ASB to have themmaggically shift all focus to conquering India when surrounded by enemies on all sides at home. Thus taking into account the social, politcal, economic and religious situation plaguing ancien regime France throughought the early modern period till at least the Second French Empire, francce could not take India.
 
lol france conquering India. This is the same france that in the 16th century was embroiled in fruitless wars with the hapsburgs and religious turmoil. The same france that in the 17th and 18th century basically fought constantly with the rest of europe. France in the 1760s following the seven year war was in no position to take over India. I mean France had much more important things to focus on like trying to conquer the Nethrlands for the upteenth time, or trying to push into Italy. They are a mess and do not have the resources till the 1800s to take india and by then the brits already got theire. Even in the 1800s napoleoanic france was too busy in europe. France could conquer india if they did not focus all there efforts in Europe but that is what they did and from a geographical standpoint was how they would beheave logically. Its ASB to have themmaggically shift all focus to conquering India when surrounded by enemies on all sides at home. Thus taking into account the social, politcal, economic and religious situation plaguing ancien regime France throughought the early modern period till at least the Second French Empire, francce could not take India.
Yet they were a good contender, what bout that? Even so, you know you could have them perform betterly in Europe so they have more resources for India.
 
lol france conquering India. This is the same france that in the 16th century was embroiled in fruitless wars with the hapsburgs and religious turmoil. The same france that in the 17th and 18th century basically fought constantly with the rest of europe. France in the 1760s following the seven year war was in no position to take over India. I mean France had much more important things to focus on like trying to conquer the Nethrlands for the upteenth time, or trying to push into Italy. They are a mess and do not have the resources till the 1800s to take india and by then the brits already got theire. Even in the 1800s napoleoanic france was too busy in europe. France could conquer india if they did not focus all there efforts in Europe but that is what they did and from a geographical standpoint was how they would beheave logically. Its ASB to have themmaggically shift all focus to conquering India when surrounded by enemies on all sides at home. Thus taking into account the social, politcal, economic and religious situation plaguing ancien regime France throughought the early modern period till at least the Second French Empire, francce could not take India.

Hey, to be fair, Britain was also embroiled in such fruitless wars, and would have kept up the bloody wars against Scotland had James I and VI not taken the throne.

And Spain was also embroiled in such wars, which did not stop them from ruling the Americas and the Philippines.
 

longsword14

Banned
Lol. As if the Raj came due to direct crown intervention and sole focus of Britain on India. Dupleix remaining or someone competent as his replacement would be capable of doing what Clive and company did. Investing time and money into India makes sense in the latter part of the 18th century if the French could hope to have a profit and a lasting presence.
This was not true because due to some completely avoidable decisions/mistakes that were fairly minor, BEIC was allowed to strengthen its position.
You argument falls flat when you realise how 19th cent. India came to be dominated by an external power.
 
As others have pointed out, it would be very difficult for any European power to take on the Mughals as long as the Mughals had competent leadership and the tech level between the Mughals and the European power was not too dissimilar. Actually, leaving aside the Mughals, it would be difficult for a European state to even comprehensively defeat any of the Southern Indian kingdoms/sultanates until the 1700s. The Portuguese managed to conquer Goa, which was under the Bijapur sultanate (probably the weakest of the Southern sultanates) but they did not even try to push their luck at a wider conquest.

The other thing to remember is that none of the European powers were trying to establish an empire in India. They were there for trade which also meant establishing and defending trading outposts. Every time the guy on the spot tried to exceed that brief they were sharply rebuked by their masters back at Europe. This happened to both Albuquerque (the Portuguese admiral who conquered Goa) and Dupleix. War is expensive. The European trading companies needed to show profit which got wiped out any year there was a significant conflict in India. Now, if the conflict was part of a greater European war or if the conflict was started by someone else (either another European power or an Indian ruler) then that was one thing. But it was completely unacceptable otherwise. Dupleix tried to prolong the conflict after the end of War of Austrian Succession (which ended in 1748) and got sacked because of that in 1754. In 1756, Britain and France were already fighting each other (Seven Years War) and in Bengal, it was the newly installed Nawab Siraj ud-Daulah who started the actual conflict. So when Clive was fighting at Plassey he had cover. Actually, the Nawab he helped install gave quite lucrative land holdings (the 24 Parganas with a total area of about 14000 sq KM) to the EIC and thus Clive managed to actually increase the annual revenue of the EIC. He also managed to grab a good amount of money for himself but that's another story.

The other significant issue is the huge dominance of the Royal Navy over the other European navies. Only if the Royal Navy was defeated decisively (probably by a coalition of most of the Naval powers of the continent) would the sea lanes to India be free for other powers to send reinforcements and prevent the British from doing so. OTL, the opposite usually happened. Also, the continental powers spent most of their military budget on their armies. They had to as they had land borders to defend or had ambitions of annexing neighboring territories.

I think without aborting the development of the Royal Navy, it would be difficult for another European power to project significant enough force to India. Now, development of Royal Navy is in many ways a new phenomena. Despite the defeat of teh Spanish Armada, there really was no permanent navy in England during the reign of Elizabeth I. It was the Stuart kings and Cromwell who created the navy. I think the simplest POD would be preventing the unification of Britain and keep Scotland as a (semi-) hostile power to England but it might also be possible to have Britain allied with France (I know, heresy, but the Stuarts tried just that) and have less need for a large navy.
 
As others have pointed out, it would be very difficult for any European power to take on the Mughals as long as the Mughals had competent leadership and the tech level between the Mughals and the European power was not too dissimilar. Actually, leaving aside the Mughals, it would be difficult for a European state to even comprehensively defeat any of the Southern Indian kingdoms/sultanates until the 1700s. The Portuguese managed to conquer Goa, which was under the Bijapur sultanate (probably the weakest of the Southern sultanates) but they did not even try to push their luck at a wider conquest.


I've read the explanation that it was due to artillery technology. Until the mid-XVIIIth century, the Europeans couldn't get mobile artillery right on a grand scale. Once they had it on land, it acted as a massive force multiplier which allowed them to gain territory. The earlier success were because it's easier to get good mobile artillery on a ship.

The other thing to remember is that none of the European powers were trying to establish an empire in India. They were there for trade which also meant establishing and defending trading outposts. Every time the guy on the spot tried to exceed that brief they were sharply rebuked by their masters back at Europe. This happened to both Albuquerque (the Portuguese admiral who conquered Goa) and Dupleix. War is expensive. The European trading companies needed to show profit which got wiped out any year there was a significant conflict in India. Now, if the conflict was part of a greater European war or if the conflict was started by someone else (either another European power or an Indian ruler) then that was one thing. But it was completely unacceptable otherwise. Dupleix tried to prolong the conflict after the end of War of Austrian Succession (which ended in 1748) and got sacked because of that in 1754. In 1756, Britain and France were already fighting each other (Seven Years War) and in Bengal, it was the newly installed Nawab Siraj ud-Daulah who started the actual conflict. So when Clive was fighting at Plassey he had cover. Actually, the Nawab he helped install gave quite lucrative land holdings (the 24 Parganas with a total area of about 14000 sq KM) to the EIC and thus Clive managed to actually increase the annual revenue of the EIC. He also managed to grab a good amount of money for himself but that's another story.

The other significant issue is the huge dominance of the Royal Navy over the other European navies. Only if the Royal Navy was defeated decisively (probably by a coalition of most of the Naval powers of the continent) would the sea lanes to India be free for other powers to send reinforcements and prevent the British from doing so. OTL, the opposite usually happened. Also, the continental powers spent most of their military budget on their armies. They had to as they had land borders to defend or had ambitions of annexing neighboring territories.
Great explanation, thanks!

I think without aborting the development of the Royal Navy, it would be difficult for another European power to project significant enough force to India. Now, development of Royal Navy is in many ways a new phenomena. Despite the defeat of teh Spanish Armada, there really was no permanent navy in England during the reign of Elizabeth I. It was the Stuart kings and Cromwell who created the navy. I think the simplest POD would be preventing the unification of Britain and keep Scotland as a (semi-) hostile power to England but it might also be possible to have Britain allied with France (I know, heresy, but the Stuarts tried just that) and have less need for a large navy.
AFAIR, the French navy actually scored quite a few success in the XVIIIth century in the Indian Ocean! I think it's also a factor of the land holding. More land holding allows you more good ports and more shipyard to build good ships. The French often had to sail from the Ile de la Réunion...
 
I've read the explanation that it was due to artillery technology. Until the mid-XVIIIth century, the Europeans couldn't get mobile artillery right on a grand scale. Once they had it on land, it acted as a massive force multiplier which allowed them to gain territory. The earlier success were because it's easier to get good mobile artillery on a ship.
Yes, Indian artillery was often better than the European Indian armies even much later. Arthur Wellesley (future Duke of Wellington) was very impressed with quality of the Maratha bronze cannons at Battle of Assaye. Indian bronze and brass casting methods remained superior for a long time which allowed them to make the canons lighter. After 1700 the Indians started to lag behind in doctrine. The European invention and widespread adoption of flintlock muskets with bayonets also helped.
AFAIR, the French navy actually scored quite a few success in the XVIIIth century in the Indian Ocean! I think it's also a factor of the land holding. More land holding allows you more good ports and more shipyard to build good ships. The French often had to sail from the Ile de la Réunion...
You are indeed correct. But the British usually were more capable of sending reinforcements after a reversal while the French often had to fight with local resources. I also think that the position of the French outpost of Chandernagar up river of Calcutta was a problem in Bengal. The British could more easily stop reinforcements going to Chandernagar and Calcutta could receive larger ships. This was an accident of history: the reason Job Chernock decided to place the British factory in Bengal at Calcutta (at that time mostly a swamp at the outskirts of Sunderban forrest) was to get away from the Mughal forces headquartered at Hooghly.
 

longsword14

Banned
@Tanc49
The problem was not just about technology but about methods. Europe had also started surpassing the East in fields of metallurgy, mathematics etc. Better infantry allowed them to go up outnumbered and beat superior numbers on a regular basis.
Also, after the enlightenment I get the feeling while I read about the West that there was a fundamental shift in military thought while Asia stagnated.
Armies fielded by European nations were better drilled, had one power to respond to, centralised and used gunpowder far better. The artillery advantage was in fact in the favour of the European armies as they tended to be lighter, well suited for mobile action as compared to the heavier pieces of the opposition that were really troublesome to transport and had varying sizes.
Technically they were lagging too,for example look at Assaye where the artillery were trained by the French instead of native gunners.

@hplurker
Your comment about RN advantage over nations on the continent is true, but I believe things can be changed radically if France is given a cash-cow.
If France can get to such a situation where keeping enough vessels in the relevant water bodies is needed to secure their holdings then they can push for a better navy. Also, Britain had not zeroed in to India as the holding to be kept, so early deterrence might cool enthusiasm, nor was India the only theater of interest. Even if the British have an advantage in overall strength they might have other seas to contest and allow France to concentrate in the east.
 
@hplurker
Your comment about RN advantage over nations on the continent is true, but I believe things can be changed radically if France is given a cash-cow.
If France can get to such a situation where keeping enough vessels in the relevant water bodies is needed to secure their holdings then they can push for a better navy. Also, Britain had not zeroed in to India as the holding to be kept, so early deterrence might cool enthusiasm, nor was India the only theater of interest. Even if the British have an advantage in overall strength they might have other seas to contest and allow France to concentrate in the east.
French already had a cash cow, as did the British: in the Caribbean sugar islands. Actually for both the British and the French India was very much a sideshow until the British hit the jackpot in Bengal. So what you are suggesting is that the French manage to gain some territory in India and (this is crucial) it is recognized by the French in Europe to be significant enough that they do not give it back in the negotiating table for something else.
 

longsword14

Banned
French already had a cash cow, as did the British: in the Caribbean sugar islands. Actually for both the British and the French India was very much a sideshow until the British hit the jackpot in Bengal. So what you are suggesting is that the French manage to gain some territory in India and (this is crucial) it is recognized by the French in Europe to be significant enough that they do not give it back in the negotiating table for something else.
India did have possibilities for the future, something it appears Dupleix cottoned on to. Provided the French can accelerate their schedule it could happen that the crown back home bothers to pay attention.
Still not sure about the navy though, feels like they had not been up to Louis XIV's navy, or maybe the rest got a lot better.
 
A court intrigue could be a good way : if madame de Pompadour is won over with some Indian riches, she could influence Paris-Duverney at the EIC to back Dumas and Dupleix and accelerate the dismissal of Machault of the department of Navy.
 
India did have possibilities for the future, something it appears Dupleix cottoned on to. Provided the French can accelerate their schedule it could happen that the crown back home bothers to pay attention.
Dupleix also had the problem of quarrelling with Bourdonnais, the French admiral who won/drew all the battles he fought against the British. This was a problem for the French: they had no unified command. Dupleix was Governor General in India but had no authority over the forces stationed in Reunion which were under Bourdonnais. With the British the three presidencies, Bombay, Madras and Calcutta all had their own Governors but any naval or army forces employed in their areas fell under their authority.
Still not sure about the navy though, feels like they had not been up to Louis XIV's navy, or maybe the rest got a lot better.
I am a little confused by who you are referring to by "they": the British Royal Navy? Except for the Battle of Beachy Head, the British won every major engagement they fought against the French Navy under Louis XIV.
 
A court intrigue could be a good way : if madame de Pompadour is won over with some Indian riches, she could influence Paris-Duverney at the EIC to back Dumas and Dupleix and accelerate the dismissal of Machault of the department of Navy.
Maybe not intrigue, but if the Compagnie des Indes was more coopted on an intellectual level, it could help. Maybe Indian ambassadors come to the court? It did happen with Persian ambassadors after all, and Vietnamese ambassadors some decades later.

It could help push the king into a formal state to hurt the Brits
 

longsword14

Banned
I am a little confused by who you are referring to by "they": the British Royal Navy? Except for the Battle of Beachy Head, the British won every major engagement they fought against the French Navy under Louis XIV.
They being the French Navy of Louis XV, not being able to contest as well as that of Louis XIV.
As to RN vs French Navy in Louis XIV's wars, the balance is roughly equal, with the Dutch often chipping in. Mind you, there really were no battles where outright fleets were destroyed (except a few, but there ships were in harbour etc.), hardly showcasing RN superiority that was gained over the next decades.
 
They being the French Navy of Louis XV, not being able to contest as well as that of Louis XIV.
As to RN vs French Navy in Louis XIV's wars, the balance is roughly equal, with the Dutch often chipping in. Mind you, there really were no battles where outright fleets were destroyed (except a few, but there ships were in harbour etc.), hardly showcasing RN superiority that was gained over the next decades.
Yes, I agree that the two navies were roughly equal at the time of Louis XIV but by the end of the War of Spanish Succession (Battles of Vigo Bay and Toulouse) the French navy had been decimated: as you note, not by battles in open sea but at port.

I think ultimately the issue was money. There is a wonderful little book called The Sinews of Power which argues that it was the ability of the English/British state to finance its wars that was the crucial difference. On the other hand, the French fiscal regime suffered crisis after crisis until the revolution destroyed teh old fiscal regime.
 
Lol. As if the Raj came due to direct crown intervention and sole focus of Britain on India. Dupleix remaining or someone competent as his replacement would be capable of doing what Clive and company did. Investing time and money into India makes sense in the latter part of the 18th century if the French could hope to have a profit and a lasting presence.
This was not true because due to some completely avoidable decisions/mistakes that were fairly minor, BEIC was allowed to strengthen its position.
You argument falls flat when you realise how 19th cent. India came to be dominated by an external power.
Same can be said for india longsword. If the marathas in late 18th century had not fallen apart the europeans would not have been able to conquer the subcontinent. Prove to me that against a united maratha confederacy the beic could win. I never said state intervention, I said that the british in India, to clarify the BEIC got lucky. History is just that a bunch of lucky events and as an economic historian, one learns that nothing should be taken at face value. Most stats are made up to be honest by scanty figures and innacurate data and even more questionable assumptions. Take Maddison people cite his stuff but he uses an arbitrary baseline of 400 and in many peer reviewed journals his methodolgy is severly critized, yet his stuff is some of the best we have. Most historical narratives are laughably flawed, and should only be taken indicitvly. So to conclude, the best one can say is that yes the french or british could conquer the subcontinent if conditions were such that their was internal civil war within the maratha or mughal states. As for Spain, come now, Spain won because of lots of native allies, plague and disease. Had the native populations not been wiped out in such large numbers I doubt the Spaniards could have held much if any territory. Demographics are annoying, just look at the situation of the english colonies pre mass dieoff of the native american tribes due to disease. There was a reaso people were going native. Britian did so well in otl because of access to the New World trade networks, eg fueling of the lancashire cotton mills, slave labor output from the Carribean, shrewd commercial practices eg tariffs on chinese and indin manufacturers, having solid financing systems, and access to plentiful natural resources key to industrial manufacturing, waterways, deforestation, literacy rates, and centralization. So yes Britain was very well positioned but as the Seond Angloo Maratha war and first anglo maratha war showed, the BEIC could not on its own take over India. Nor could the FEIC, given France was too busy in EUrope. France does better in europe well great more coalitions and more warfare. Look what happened when Napoleon came to power and tried conquering Europe, not to mention rivalry with Britain and Netherlands means the French fleet is useless. Spain could help, but they had their own issues what with three bankruptcies and piracy. Charles III was a brilliant man to be fair, but.... had enough headaches to deal with.
Three theories are possible explanations for British success
World Systems Theory
California School Theory
WeberianView

Post 1800 I agree Europeans could have either conquered or protectorized India like they did to China, by then gap was too large. Pre 1800 next to impossible, and very situational in nature. Pre 1700... not a chance. Portugal by the way in this period eg 1600s was embroiled in war with the Netherlands and lost almost all its holdings, and also fought with Spain for independance from the Union. Tech disparty was not so wide then and against a well trained Mughal army, Portuguese troops or Portuguese casa de indies troops would be annighlated.
 
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@Wendell
Your argument about the English having an inherently better method is false. More like the English had more incentives to colonise empty lands. France did not colonise N America and had problems with attracting people, had it not been so the demographic dominance of English speakers would not exist, France looked towards continental Europe while Britain looked towards outer expansion with none of the other Europeans powers having any interest or the coastline.
The current scenario of English as the world-language is more due to circumstances than any superior method (that and WWI,WWII causing American involvement in Europe).
The Cajuns and the Quebecois would like a word with you.
 

longsword14

Banned
The Cajuns and the Quebecois would like a word with you.
And what does that prove? France could never attract enough settlers, Quebec being a prime example.France also had tended to let the colonies fend off for themselves, with Europe being the greatest priority. You only reinforce my point rather than disprove it.
 
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