Arado 234 Bomber 1943

[Carl Schwamberger]

As Germanies jet engine aircraft development progressed the priority from sometime in 1942 was the development of the Me262 fighter model. I'm curious about the results were the priority give to bomber development. How soon could the AR234 airframe been ready for production and operational groups stood up?

Assuming production reach 100 - 200 per month in late 1943 and a operational group ready at that point what would have been the best use for such a unit and would it have had any noticable effect on the war from that point?

My first thought is attacks on the Allied bomber fields in the UK during the winter of 1943-44. Could that have raised Allied bomber losses above the threashold needed to degrad the stratigic bombing campaign that winter?

 

[sloreck]

Those production numbers aren't doable, even if a significant chunk of the Luftwaffe production is steered that way. Maybe, just maybe could get the airframes but no way they can produce enough engines - and don't forget due to issues with metallurgy among others the lifetime of those engines was ridiculously short. Also jets are fuel hogs, Germany was woefully short of oil and keeping those jets burning will be highly problematic.

Don't forget for every bomber (even a medium one like the Arado) you build you don't build several fighters. Less fighters means the USAAF & RAF have an easier time with the bombing campaign which reduces factory output, oil output, transportation etc. Even with ASB's handwaving all the limitations that prevent this from happening, the net positive effect of these won't equal the negatives.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

You've also got to realize that whatever numbers you come up with the AR 234 is a distinctly mediocre bomber. Better than a 262 yes, but ultimately carrying a rather light payload that it needed to place itself in a vulnerable low altitude low speed position to use effectively. It was as a reconnaissance platform that the aircraft really shined, and by this late in the war short of turning D-Day on the beach even complete knowledge of Allied actions will realistically have only marginal impact.

In that ground attack role a longer war it might have made a good platform for various air to ground missiles, but that really isn't something that a few hundred aircraft in '43 is going to help with.

 

[MUC]

The main butterfly from an earlier deployment of Arado 234 is that the Luftwaffe will posess a recon aircraft, which can survive against enemy defences.
Thus the Germans may be able to notice the buildup of Allied formations earlier, helping them to absorb blows like the Byelorussian offensive better than in OTL. They would also have an aircraft to attack allied fleets more effective both around Italy and France.

 

[marathag]

The main butterfly from an earlier deployment of Arado 234 is that the Luftwaffe will posess a recon aircraft, which can survive against enemy defences.

existing recon flights didn't notice that FUSAG, massing across from Pas de Calais, were all made from inflatable rubber.

I don't see how taking those same pictures from a 100mph faster plane will dissuade Hitler on where D-Day was aimed at

 

[wietze]

a plane that has a very low chance of being interception will allow to fly more recon flights. agree here that the AR234 as a recon plane will be invaluable this earlier

 

[Riain]

Any German jet aircraft available in 1943 is predicated on the availability of reliable jet engines, this is the problem with all German jet questions.

As for the AR234, personally I like it and wonder what would have happened if when Hitler suggested the Me262 be used as a bomber someone mentioned that there was a bomber in testing at that time which could carry a much heavier bombload. Perhaps Hitler would have ordered more priority be given to the AR234 and it would have entered service sooner than OTL.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

existing recon flights didn't notice that FUSAG, massing across from Pas de Calais, were all made from inflatable rubber.

I don't see how taking those same pictures from a 100mph faster plane will dissuade Hitler on where D-Day was aimed at

One of the books concerning Allied deception ops pegged the number of German recon flights over the UK as 127 between 1 Jan & 5 June 1944. The Brits wanted the Germans to collect photos of the inflatable tanks, and fake landing craft in eastern England, so the deception organization concentrated on concealment and displays. Efforts to intercept the recon flights were not a maximum effort.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

You've also got to realize that whatever numbers you come up with the AR 234 is a distinctly mediocre bomber. Better than a 262 yes, but ultimately carrying a rather light payload that it needed to place itself in a vulnerable low altitude low speed position to use effectively. It was as a reconnaissance platform that the aircraft really shined, and by this late in the war short of turning D-Day on the beach even complete knowledge of Allied actions will realistically have only marginal impact.

In that ground attack role a longer war it might have made a good platform for various air to ground missiles, but that really isn't something that a few hundred aircraft in '43 is going to help with.

I was thinking using small light bombs for attacking airfields. In the Pacific the US 5th Af found scattering a lot of small bombs at the parked enemy aircraft worked better than a few medium of heavy bombs. The 5th AF also had to contend with the light payload problem as the long Pacific missions required trading off weapons for fuel.

 

[phx1138]

My first thought is attacks on the Allied bomber fields in the UK during the winter of 1943-44.

You don't need the Ar-234 for that. You just need Hitler to okay it. Bf-110s & Ju-88s could do it nicely.

Could that have raised Allied bomber losses above the threashold needed to degrad the stratigic bombing campaign that winter?

It could have had a serious effect on losses, & even moreso on morale, IMO. The bases were pretty well packed...

Don't forget, the missions could also have been against Coastal Command, with knock-on benefits to BdU, too.

 

[Riain]

Wouldn't the RAF shoot down Bf110s and Ju88 with the same planes they shot down V1s with?

 

[phx1138]

Wouldn't the RAF shoot down Bf110s and Ju88 with the same planes they shot down V1s with?

Night interceptions, even with radar, were extremely difficult before AI appeared. Warning was near nil. So low-flying Ju-88/Bf-110 intruder ops could be over the coast before the fighters even scrambled, & finding them would be damned hard. It's very likely IMO they could do serious harm.

 

[Andras]

XP-47J goes into production

The XP-47J began as a November 1942 request to Republic for a high-performance version of the Thunderbolt using a lighter airframe and an uprated engine with water injection and fan cooling. Kartveli designed an aircraft fitted with a tight-cowled Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57(C) with a war emergency rating of 2,800 hp (2,090 kW), reduced armament of six 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns, a new and lighter wing, and many other changes. The only XP-47J was first flown in late November 1943. When fitted with a GE CH-5 turbosupercharger, the XP-47J achieved a top speed of 505 mph (440 kn, 813 km/h) in level flight in August 1944, making it one of the fastest piston engine fighters ever built.

The Ar234 had a top speed around 460mph, so it's not invulnerable to interception. Normal P-47s can hit 550mph in a dive.

The P-47 would also claim over 20 Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters, and four Arado Ar 234 jet bombers in aerial combat, proving its effectiveness in combat with the much more advanced and faster German aircraft.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

You don't need the Ar-234 for that. You just need Hitler to okay it. Bf-110s & Ju-88s could do it nicely.

It could have had a serious effect on losses, & even moreso on morale, IMO. The bases were pretty well packed...

Don't forget, the missions could also have been against Coastal Command, with knock-on benefits to BdU, too.

My father described the night raids on his bomber groups base. He remarked on their ineffectiveness with the bombs hitting little of importance. He did not mention a single aircraft lost to these night attacks from his arrival in the summer of 1943 and departure for France in September 1944. Later when based in Belgium and France they did lose some aircraft to daylight raids. His bomber group was heavily involved in attacking the German airbases in France/Belgium in the latter half of 1943. Those were of course all daylight raids, and they were using medium and heavy bombs vs the buildings, fuel storage, ect... The photos taken before, during, and after the raids showed few aircraft actually on these airfields.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Andras
Quote:
The P-47 would also claim over 20 Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters, and four Arado Ar 234 jet bombers in aerial combat, proving its effectiveness in combat with the much more advanced and faster German aircraft.
Today 06:31 AM

...Can you provide the source for this. I asked about sources for the Me262 losses on another forum and the 'experts' there failed to point to anything usefull.

Thanks

 

[Riain]

XP-47J goes into production


The Ar234 had a top speed around 460mph, so it's not invulnerable to interception. Normal P-47s can hit 550mph in a dive.

It's hard work getting into a dive against a plane doing 460 mph.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Or even 360 mph. Twin engined models like the B25 or B26 pushed up beyond 300 mph for their bombing missions and German, Italian, and Japanese fighter pilots complained about the difficulty in getting a good shot, vs the slower four engined models.

 

[Andras]

Andras
Quote:
The P-47 would also claim over 20 Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters, and four Arado Ar 234 jet bombers in aerial combat, proving its effectiveness in combat with the much more advanced and faster German aircraft.
Today 06:31 AM

...Can you provide the source for this. I asked about sources for the Me262 losses on another forum and the 'experts' there failed to point to anything usefull.

Thanks

Partly
pages 81-82


It also depends on if it is a 2 engine 234 or a 4 engine 234 since the 4 engine 234s were faster (530mph)

 

[Just Leo]

Or even 360 mph. Twin engined models like the B25 or B26 pushed up beyond 300 mph for their bombing missions and German, Italian, and Japanese fighter pilots complained about the difficulty in getting a good shot, vs the slower four engined models.

B-25s didn't push 300 mph because the installation of R-2800 engines was denied for reasons of logistics, production priorities and need. The addition of extra armor and gun blisters made them slower. The B-26 also didn't top 300 mph, although its eventual successor did by a using a smaller airframe to house a much smaller crew complement with a smaller, thinner laminar wing and slightly up-rated engines. The A-26 Invader went on to serve in Vietnam. Bombers don't regularly fly at maximum speed anyway, and quoted book figures doesn't necessarily indicate the flying state of the aircraft, such as fuel state and bomb load. The Arado Ar-234 carried an external bomb load of very limited weight and scope, and this slowed its speed by 60 mph., according to my Jane's. Flying at maximum speed always meant you took a large chunk out of your range and endurance. Altitude was another factor with all aircraft, for speed and range figures, with jets being notoriously thirsty at low altitudes.

The Luftwaffe did possess cluster bombs, in 500 and 1000 kg varieties for anyone wishing to imagine an airfield raid. The Arado had three points capable of carrying 1000 kg but was limited to 1500 kg overall as a general rule. Their take-off run was long, and sometimes aided by JATO bottles jettisoned after exhaustion.

It's a pity that four-engined Arados never entered service as this would provide marvellous statistics about comparative catastrophic failures due to faulty engines stopping/exploding.

Nobody has yet mentioned that early Arados took off from a trolley and landed on a skid. I wonder why.

 

[phx1138]

My father described the night raids on his bomber groups base. He remarked on their ineffectiveness with the bombs hitting little of importance. He did not mention a single aircraft lost to these night attacks from his arrival in the summer of 1943 and departure for France in September 1944. Later when based in Belgium and France they did lose some aircraft to daylight raids. His bomber group was heavily involved in attacking the German airbases in France/Belgium in the latter half of 1943. Those were of course all daylight raids, and they were using medium and heavy bombs vs the buildings, fuel storage, ect... The photos taken before, during, and after the raids showed few aircraft actually on these airfields.

I suggest you get with Ian Hathaway on this site, then. He's saying the opposite...

Also, if the Germans are using cluster bombs (which they had), like the Fifth AF's parafrags, they could do a lot more damage than with 250pdrs.