Antiquity; IBERIAN empire-power?

[The Ubbergeek]

Inspired by old ideas, and that thread on lost civilizations, like the possible Tarteros...

Is that a possibility that a 'native' or colonial power (like a greek or punic or such colony) would rise, unite (more) lands, grow in power and start a small empire of it's own, conquering some lands around?

Was pre-medieval age Iberian peninsula too 'poor' or 'backward' on its own?

Could a city-state by example like Massilia in Gaul unite 'barbarians' and such, become a local power, like Carthage in modern Maghreb?

 

[LSCatilina]

Is that a possibility that a 'native' or colonial power (like a greek or punic or such colony) would rise, unite (more) lands, grow in power and start a small empire of it's own, conquering some lands around?

It's not really working this way. Just managing to organize a city enough time for making it a major harbour require an hell of power. Even relativly small ones as Lattara finished to decline cause to not enough authority to avoid the blocking of waters by sediments.

And think that is many cities that are develloping quite independently. Sure one could try to conquer them all, but as long she does that, she's not doing trade. If the attacked one make an alliance with another, etc.
And both greeks and phoenicians have the bigger interest to prevent these wars on all the influence they have. And they have a lot.

Was pre-medieval age Iberian peninsula too 'poor' or 'backward' on its own?

Not really, but too subject to regular invasions. Maybe if you manage to have both a period of more lasting peace and no power-hungry empire in the court( Carthage, Rome) then maybe.

Could a city-state by example like Massilia in Gaul unite 'barbarians' and such, become a local power, like Carthage in modern Maghreb?

It's possible, but while Carthage benefited of a relative calm countryside (by the way, the city didn't that much conquered the lybian tribes, but managed to integrate them, and to accepte their influence), and of no great concurrency at the beggining.

Massalia was created to be a concurrent city, and therefore more subject to commercial conflicts with other harbours. And the celts and the ligurs were more agressive towards the greeks, particularly because these ones were'nt too fond of "integration of barbarians", not talking about welcoming their influence.

So, it's possible, but require earlier POD.

 

[Young Lochinvar]

This might be too late for what you are thinking but:

Quintus Sertorius managed to carve a private fiefdom out of Roman Hispania for eight years. His downfall was only achieved via treachery but his regime is still unlikely to survive given that it was formed in the chaos of civil war and the constant attempt by Rome to crush his insurrection.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Massalia, just like any Greek city-state in its time, had a limited citizen-body. Citizenship was mainly based on ancestry, and it was very rarely awarded to outsiders. Some cities, such as Athens and Corinth, would have large resident Metic populations, many of which would have lived in the city's territory for generations, and still not be considered citizens. For this reason, no Greek city-state was able to do what Rome did.

In the case of Massilia, its likely that it would become the protectorate of either Rome, or some powerful Gaulish confederation in the north (the Arverni).

 

[CandyDragon]

Could a city-state by example like Massilia in Gaul unite 'barbarians' and such, become a local power, like Carthage in modern Maghreb?

Massilia really couldn't do that- she had very limited numbers of troops, and all her power came from trade, especially trade with the barbarians which she would be conquering. Without the trade, Massilia would wither and die.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Maybe instead of Carthage, one of the Punic colonies in Spain ends up becoming the dominant power in the Mediterranean. There was Gadir.

 

[LSCatilina]

Gadir was mainly a trading post linked to Tartessos. I doubt it would have enough space and possibility to expand even in the countryside.
In fact, the punic settlements were not very important as the iberic country side remained largely autonom. I think it's why Carthage had to make sort of province of it.

But if you search a greek place that have some potential, you have Denia or Mainaké (exact emplacment unknown)in the eastern coast.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Now, not just such city-states...

Could Iberians or Celtiberians or such lords could unite the peninsula or such? The gauls by example where more advanced than thought - the opidiums where created by gauls I think, by example, maybe a Vergincetorix could rise from Celtiberians...

 

[CandyDragon]

Now, not just such city-states...

Could Iberians or Celtiberians or such lords could unite the peninsula or such? The gauls by example where more advanced than thought - the opidiums where created by gauls I think, by example, maybe a Vergincetorix could rise from Celtiberians...

Vercingetorix only arose due to the rapid conquest of Gaul by Caesar. Spain was conquered much more gradually. I suppose if you had some empire massively expand throughout *Hispania, you might see some confederation arise in rebellion, but it's unlikely, imo.

 

[Daeres]

There are two major reasons why states/people innovate; peer-polity interaction and external pressure/contact. To translate these rather poncy sounding terms, peer-polity interaction is when people are driven to compete in order to stand out among their social peer group. This is how you can get certain cultures developing without an external culture being required. The other, external pressure, is rather self explanatory.

And even then, certain things can prevent either one of these from resulting in political unity or conquering. A good example is Greece; the individual power of even the strongest polis was extremely limited because of their small population bases and the frustrating geography of Greece itself. The Athenian Empire is probably as good as you'd ever get from the Greeks themselves in terms of hegemony.

As was said just now, Vercingetorix was a reaction to the extreme circumstances of Roman conquest and was essentially trying to use Roman methods of organisation that were relatively alien to normal Gaulish practice.

There is another limit on expansion and power, especially when creating an Empire; technology. Not just physical technologies but also social technologies. By which I mean social practices and methods designed to control populations of different cultures. Ultimately, most state sizes are limited by three things; geography and climate, the relative strength and size of neighbours, but thirdly the ability for a person or group to project their power beyond their immediate presence. And technology is a big factor in this.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Just a thought, but the Arverni may very well have become an empire (within Gaul at least) if not for Roman expansion in Gaul during the 120's BCE. If one large tribal confederation could control the major trade routes and keep any of its client tribes/states in line long enough, they could do what Rome did and gradually integrate them all.

The Celtiberians would have to fall under the firm leadership of one of the major tribes, such as the Arevaci in central Spain, before focusing their efforts into conquering some of Iberia's Mediterranean coastline. Controlling the trafficking of highly-prized commodities from the eastern Med into Iberia would increase their own wealth, so they could employ professional forces an subjugate the rest of Iberia over time.

 

[Errnge]

Inspired by old ideas, and that thread on lost civilizations, like the possible Tarteros...

Is that a possibility that a 'native' or colonial power (like a greek or punic or such colony) would rise, unite (more) lands, grow in power and start a small empire of it's own, conquering some lands around?

Was pre-medieval age Iberian peninsula too 'poor' or 'backward' on its own?

Could a city-state by example like Massilia in Gaul unite 'barbarians' and such, become a local power, like Carthage in modern Maghreb?

It's Tartessos, not Tarteros I think. But anyway:

It is very possible. The Lusitanians, though not culturally dominant, were politically very powerful in Iberia. Viriathus gave Rome some real trouble, and actually established a Lusitanian Kingdom in Iberia that conquered Roman lands.

Also, the city of Tartessos was a keen location for trade. Methinks the main thing that the Iberians needed were more cultural unity and ships. In Iberia there were several cultures present before Phoenician and Greek colonist showed up. There were the Lusitanians, an Indo-European group believed to either be closely related to or at least heavily influenced by the Celts, who make up the second group. Then there are the Basques and Iberians who may or may not have been related to each other.

It is unsure which of these cultures the Tartessians belonged to.

With added homogeny, the next step would be the mass production of ships, to perhaps gain access to the riches of the east. They might establish colonies along North Africa, Gaul, and Italy, which would immediately put them at odds with the Carthaginians.

As for your last question... I'm not sure what that has to do with Iberia, and, No. The Gallic tribes to the north vastly outmanned and in many ways had much more power than the Greeks of Massalia. The reason why Gallia Narbonensis was invaded by the Romans to begin with was because Massalia was about to be overrun by Gauls, and they sought Roman assistance.

 

[Tocomocho]

It is unsure which of these cultures the Tartessians belonged to.

The Tartessians were Iberians. Now, Iberian is a way more loose term than it is commonly though. They were very orientalized in terms of art, religion, etc too.

Personally I've always though that had the Lusitanians or the Celtiberians faced anyone but Rome, they'd pulled it. You have the potential of a Rome situation here: A "barbarian", warlike people, that is on the fringes of oriental trade/colonization. Mix militarism and "civilization" (i.e. statal structure, adopted through foreign influence) and boom.