Free Lancer
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im Looking for Help with my TL, what are the ways that Lee can beat McClellan at Antietam
Antietam
- Thread starter Free Lancer
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67th Tigers
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Easy. Franklin's attack goes in and is defeated, then Lee's planned counterattack shatters the Federal right. Job done.
Free Lancer
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And what would you Suppose Happen after that? McClellans Forces at the Battle were Extremely Disorganized i see a Panic and Retreat by some Corps
usertron2020
Donor
Agreed, since whatever the numbers on the field McClellan will be looking for the first excuse available to retreat. Victory at Antietam for Lee. McClellan declares a defensive victory on the grounds that his army (outnumbered more than two to one) was not destroyed by Lee's Army of Northern Virginia two hundred thousand strong.
Washington falls. But McClellan holds New York. For now.
Washington falls. But McClellan holds New York. For now.
There's no way in hell that VI corp would have been stopped. It would have split the Confederate line right in half.
67th Tigers
Banned
It isn't "6th Corps". It was two brigades of Slocum's Division, less than 2,000 bayonets (and that assumes no straggling). It so happens that their point of attack was the strongest part of the Confederate line, with the brigades formed 3 deep.
Had it been sent in that attack would almost certainly have been repulsed.
Free Lancer
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i Would Imagine That Since the ANV is Small Compared to the Army of the Potomac that Union Corp's Commanders Can Rally there Men and Counter Attack, Or Move in a Defensive Position
67th Tigers
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Well "small". There are different ways of counting, but if you take the effort to make sure you're making an apples-apples* comparison (say, bayonet strength) the two armies are relatively close in size (best estimate between 5:4 in McClellan's favour and 1:1 if Lee's special pleading is rejected).
More important is the geography. Lee's army is literally hemmed in. The stragglers can easily be found and forced back to the front. For example, in the early afternoon Hood (retired to reserve at this point) gathered up 2,000 stragglers from various commands and added them to his division for Lee's attempted turning movement against McClellan's right. In McClellan's army there is nothing physical to stop broken troops running for miles.
* The typical Lost Causer argument compares Lee's bottom end estimate of bayonet strength with McClellan's reported aggregate present for duty. There are strong indications Lee deliberately minimised his strength in his reports to justify his failure.
Free Lancer
Banned
what i ment was Compared to ANV To the Army of the Potomac if there is a Break through by the ANV it is only a Small Break Through not a Large one so Union Corps Commanders can Fall back and Reform there Lines
&
This is assuming that a) the numbers used by most historians are correct, instead of those which are used exclusively by McClellan's partisan defenders, and B) that McClellan and the Union commanders are thinking about fighting back instead of how the invincible ubermensch of the Army of Northern Virginia are going to destroy the Army of the Potomac if they don't retreat immediately.
Much as 67th would like to believe otherwise, the numbers are not nearly even - McClellan has at least a three to two advantage (Livermore gives 75,000 odd to 50,000 odd, and last time I checked he wasn't a Lost Cause historian).
So for Lee's planned counterattack to shatter any lines, someone has to lose their nerve. Namely, the someones in the way, or which can be put in the way with anything resembling generalship by McClellan.
Two divisions of 5th Corps and the other three brigades of 6th Corps have barely seen any action (this is presumably after Irwin has blooded his brigade pointlessly, though its still largely intact), that alone should stop Lee. If Lee can strip areas not being attacked to beef up his defenses, so can McClellan - assuming McClellan is capable of something resembling generalship.
But if McClellan cracks like an egg, he'll probably run like one too - so Lee just needs to make his counterattack look big and scary.
Here are the reports by the division commanders of the four divisions that did the least in the Army of the Potomac:
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=221 - Smith (6th Corps)
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=78 - Slocum (6th Corps)
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=55 - Sykes (5th Corps)
No report for Morrell (5th Corps), so here are his brigade commanders:
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=153 (Griffin)
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=139 (Barnes)
Corps commanders Franklin (6th Corps) http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=188 and Porter (5th Corps) http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=136
And don't forget the cavalry.
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=113 - Pleasanton (cavalry commander)
http://antietam.aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=OR_index
For other reports.
Posting these to show their OTL actions - or lack of action.
McClellan's own report is interesting, but more revealing about him than the situation.
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Free Lancer
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Agreed if lee does get a break through its going to need to Cause Panic and Confusion in the Union Lines in Order to succeed and Knowing McClellan’s character I’m going to assume he will order a Withdraw which will most likely never reach at Least half of the Corps Commanders adding to the Confusion and Panic
So I assume we have corps acting on their own and Remain on the battlefield or withdraw to try and with the AOTP or to regroup there troops for a counter attack against the ANV or become cutoff from any friendly forces and be destroyed
Lees character would see that instead of withdrawing back into Virginia he would continue his Invasion confident that the AOTP has been beaten and so would be caught by surprise by regiments that regrouped and gave chase, and he would most Likely beat back the assault or his army will be beaten or destroyed depending on how long it took for him to regain control of the his army and respond to the Attack
Depending on which commander that made the attack the AVN Will most likely be destroyed or captured or it will escape back into Virginia but I digress
What are the other ways the McClellan can lose the battle at Antietam?
So I assume we have corps acting on their own and Remain on the battlefield or withdraw to try and with the AOTP or to regroup there troops for a counter attack against the ANV or become cutoff from any friendly forces and be destroyed
Lees character would see that instead of withdrawing back into Virginia he would continue his Invasion confident that the AOTP has been beaten and so would be caught by surprise by regiments that regrouped and gave chase, and he would most Likely beat back the assault or his army will be beaten or destroyed depending on how long it took for him to regain control of the his army and respond to the Attack
Depending on which commander that made the attack the AVN Will most likely be destroyed or captured or it will escape back into Virginia but I digress
What are the other ways the McClellan can lose the battle at Antietam?
Cook
Banned
Where are you getting this estimate from and what numbers are you actually concluding each side had?
I’ve never seen any claim that Lee had more than 38,000 and McClellan less than 75,000 at Antietam.
Speaking as one mentioning Lee having a larger army (than 38,000) here, Livermore (Numbers and Losses of the Civil War) - sadly I can't find it conveniently mentioned online, and I can't remember where the book I did read it is (because I'm sloppy about keeping my books organized - if/when I dig it out I'll give a better citation).
That supposedly gives Lee 50,000 odd.
Free Lancer said:
Does it need to be at Sharpsburg, or can Lee fight the battle elsewhere?
Well, if he can fight the battle where he chooses, he'll probably attack, and we know how McClellan has responded to every previous attack by Lee - watch his men fight valiantly from a distance and then retreat. This might be different in direct defense of the Union, but it would not be unlikely.
It probably would be a victory only in name, though. Lee's army is in no shape (food and other supplies) to march on Washington or Philadelphia or something like that vs. any armed opposition, however timid McClellan is.
It probably would be a victory only in name, though. Lee's army is in no shape (food and other supplies) to march on Washington or Philadelphia or something like that vs. any armed opposition, however timid McClellan is.
67th Tigers
Banned
As opposed to wading in with sabre?
No, McClellan's command responsibilities required him to do what he did. Grant did exactly the same. If you think different you can go to your countries Staff College and tell them that the last 3 Millenia of Command and Staff theory was wrong.
No. They're well supplied. See Harsh's "Sounding the Shallows".
As opposed to being in a position to influence events. No one is suggesting McClellan lead from the front, simply that he play a more active role - his role is like that of Lee at Gettysburg, to use an example of "detached to the point of harming his army" generalship.
Which is why they're eating green corn. Apparently army rations got boring after a while.
http://www.history.army.mil/StaffRide/Antietam/Overview.htm I'm presuming that this has the least reason to be partial to one theory or another, as studying what actually was is more useful to the kind of learning attempted.
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im Looking for Help with my TL, what are the ways that Lee can beat McClellan at Antietam
One good kick to the crotch should do it
67th Tigers
Banned
At Antietam? It's hard to see him being more active. However, I know you probably don't think he ever left the Pry House. If you ever read primary accounts it's pretty clear he did in fact come forward several times to solve problems. Something that needs codification when I have spare time.
Yeah, you're buying into a Lost Causer myth there.
The Confederate Army in Maryland was well fed, and in fact increased their commissariat stores by a significant degree. The "Green Corn" myth is an extreme exaggeration of what happened to DH Hill's command.
Until the 13th (South Mountain) the division was faring off the commissariat most hansomely. On the 14th they cooked their breakfasts but were put on the march before eating them, and received no rations that day. On the 15th they managed to get a partial ration before the commissary wagons were withdrawn over the Potomac. On the 16th-18th they indeed had to forage what was to hand, which was actually quite a lot, but did indeed include green corn and the other produce of the farms around Sharpsburg. On the 19th they were reunited with their wagons on the Virginia side of the Potomac and were issued rations again.
The myth is to conflate the actual interruption of supplies for 3 days from the commissariat due to Lee withdrawing his trains across the Potomac (including his ammunition trains, which will have serious implications for ammunition supply) with the preceding 3 weeks.
DH Hill's division was the worst off. Most other divisions had food issued on the 16th.