Angevin France: French and English Inheritance Rules?

[Simon]

I'm considering a timeline where William IX the eldest son of Henry II of England lives whilst Philip II of France either dies at birth or has an unfortunately fatal accident which sees the Angevins do much better and after some manoeuvring ending up on the French throne. However being the folks that they are there's still going to be a lot of family squabbling and warfare between them. How set in stone were the inheritance rules at the time? I wanted Henry II to be smart enough to see that divideing up the French lands was the best way to keep peace in the family and to split up the thrones of England and France as well since it would probably be too large to administer plus make other rulers in Europe potentially nervous. France seems to be fairly easy since I had the eldest son William lined up for that and they had recent history of electing co-kings. England however seems a bit more problematic, ideally I wanted it to go to John so could Henry simply get the intervening brothers William, Henry, Richard and Geoffrey to get them to renounce their claims to clear the way? I was generally looking at things ending up something like this, please forgive the quality of the rough 30 second Paint job.



William is lined up for the main family lands of Greater Anjou and also becomes king of France. Henry gets the Marche, Auvergne, Limoges and eventually the Poitou. Richard being close to his mother inherits a slightly cut down Aquitaine made up of Perigord, Gascony and Aquitaine but annoys so many people he ends up getting paid off to go crusade and winds up as king of Cyprus. Geoffrey gets married off to pick up Brittany. John initially receives Normandy and the Lordship or Ireland before later getting the throne of England as reward for being loyal to his father in some bouts of intra-family warfare. France ends up being something of an Angevin family business with newly conquered territories just as likely to be farmed out to younger sons of the king as absorbed directly into the royal demesne, not that it's any guarantee against different branches of the family disagreeing and going to war, literally, with each other. Some of what I've planned for the future does however require getting John on the English throne so that's the main question.

 

[Matteo]

There were Classic inheritence rules for the domain that belonged to the Capetians.

Concerning the royal crown, there was no inheritence rule at that time.

The rule was election of the new king. But as the Capetians had always had a surviving son, each king since Hugues Capet took care to have his elder son elected king before his own death.

And Philip II Augustus was the last Capetian king to be elected. He was the first king of France not to have his own son elected : he had made the king of France so powerful that the election of the new king was no longer considered necessary not opportune. The crown had become, by customary evolution, the de facto property of his lineage.

Now, if you have Philip Augustus die before becoming king or having his own son, his natural heir would be the Capetian counts of Dreux (Louis VII's younger brother Robert and his son).

You could have Henry II challenge them and claim the throne. But it is highly probable that all the other peers (the holders of the other biggest duchies and counties) of the kingdom would rally around another candidate because they would fear a too powerful king like Henry II.

If the Capetians had won support for election as king for 2 centuries, It was in part because they were weak kings that were forced to let much autonomy to the great feudal lords.

And after Philip Augustus geniously manoeuvered to increase his power with the great feudal lords'support, at the expense of the Plantagenets, It was too late.

So you need to find a serious way for Henry II to gain support in the nobility (he's gonna have to pay a huge price). And he'll need the Pope's blessing too, because you can guess that the Pope will not just stay seated and watch the establishing of a new superpower similar to the Byzantine empire.

 

[Falastur]

Much of what you have speculated on is possible - in the English domains, and by extension the Angevin land in France - the inheritance laws weren't cut-and-dried and could to an extent be moulded to fit exceptional circumstances, as evidenced by RL itself where the different Angevin lands went to different sons rather than being directly passed to the eldest. The problem here is you're positing a scenario based around a warring family - every bit as internecine as RL - but the problem is that that situation is just not conducive to the Angevin Empire holding together.

If you have a different man sat on the thrones in London and Paris, there is no way that either of those two is going to agree to remain in condominium with the other. They might agree for a few years but at the first serious chance they're going to either try to conquer the other kingdom for themselves or just go rogue and rule independently, with little chance of the two being reunited peacefully.

Similarly, if you have the various Angevin duchies being handed out to a succession of younger sons you are just asking for trouble. Either the Dukes are going to team up to take down their elder brother on the French throne and one of them will try to horde power himself, or they're going to scheme behind his back to break away from Paris' orbit and become virtually independent.

I'm very interested in this idea as it's something I used to like toying with, but I could never make it work in my head. I'd be interested in reading your treatment of the idea, though.

 

[The Professor]

Exact royal succession rules are vague but in 1185

Philippe’s heirs by agnatic primogeniture (nearest male by direct male descent) were:

• Robert II, Comte de Dreux. Son of Louis VII’s brother Robert I de Dreux. He had recently married Yolande de Coucy, daughter of Agnes of Hainaut, who was sister to Baldwin V of Hainaut
• Pierre II de Courtenay. Son of Louis VII’s brother Pierre de Courtenay

Philippe's heirs by cognatic primogeniture (nearest male by direct male or female descent) were:

• Henri II [5], Comte de Champagne. 12 year old son of Marie, who is the first daughter of Eleanor and Louis VII, and of Henri I, who is brother of Philippe’s mother Adele/Alice de Champagne
• Louis de Blois. 13 year old son of Alix, who is the second daughter of Eleanor and Louis VII, and of Thibaud V Comte de Blois, who is brother to Henri I and Philippe’s mother Adele/Alice de Champagne

The following nobles had a stake in the succession:

• Henry, Count of Anjou, Maine, and Touraine etc, King of England. The most powerful man in France and married to Louis VII’s former wife Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine
• Richard, Duke of Aquitaine (invested by his mother c.1168), son of Henry II, King of England. Betrothed to Philippe's sister Alais
• Baldwin V, Count of Hainaut. Father of Philippe’s (childless) widow Isabelle of Hainaut and father of Henri and Baldwin, the future Latin Emperors of Romania. He is regarded as a descendant of Charlemagne
• Philip, Count of Flanders, and Count of Vermandois since his wife’s death in 1183. Uncle of Isabelle of Hainaut; brother-in-law of Baldwin V
• Thibaud V, Comte de Blois. Brother of Henri I de Champagne. Married to Alice, daughter of Eleanor and Louis VII. Father of Louis de Blois.
• Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine. Former wife of Louis VII. Estranged from her husband Henry II, King of England