And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace

[PrinceofApathy]

Hi there! I've been following this timeline on and off for a bit and I have some questions?

1. How many Europeans are there in the Levant so far ITTL? I doubt they'll ever compromise a majority, but will they survive as a distinct community?

2. What's the status of the Jews ITTL? I imagine we're screwed.

 

[Ridcully]

Hi there! I've been following this timeline on and off for a bit and I have some questions?

1. How many Europeans are there in the Levant so far ITTL? I doubt they'll ever compromise a majority, but will they survive as a distinct community?

2. What's the status of the Jews ITTL? I imagine we're screwed.

I don’t know if it’s a given that Europeans will not ever be a majority, but that kind of depend on what you mean.
Take Turkey for instance while you can probably say that the modern majority of people in turkey are not actually genetically the descendants of the Turks who migrated from Central Asia to Anatolia, the majority do consider themselves Turkish.

so I think you could see a situation in the modern era if the crusader states survive where while the majority are not literally European, peoples self conception of themselves is that of European Christians as that is what groups like Marionite Lebanese assimilated towards as it was the prestige identity for people and groups for centuries.

 

[bobbins]

You know, in my opinion, a much more interesting situation would be the failure of Islam. This would mean a greater departure from the OTL and more conflict between Christians in the future.

I think what’s more likely is a more fractured Islam with many more sects and flavours similar to what I think will still happen to Christianity. With crusader kingdoms in India things will be very different.
I also wonder if there will be a stronger Zoroastrian survival given the setbacks to Islam?

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

the colonies and satellites founded by the Italian Republics, such as Denia in Hispania...

Hmmm!!!!

 

[cmakk1012]

Hopeful for an Islamic Resurgence here. Losing all the progress of the late Islamic Golden Age would be downright criminal in my opinion!

It seems likely to me that the end of the Golden Age won’t be changed; we’re already in it by this point and the Mongols aren’t far off. It’s after the Mongols where the Eurasian cultural situation will change; we won’t see the cultural achievements of the Islamic gunpowder empires.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

It seems likely to me that the end of the Golden Age won’t be changed; we’re already in it by this point and the Mongols aren’t far off. It’s after the Mongols where the Eurasian cultural situation will change; we won’t see the cultural achievements of the Islamic gunpowder empires.

I wouldn't want to say won't personally. Although the Crusadist movement could and would persist into India, it doesn't naturally mean that such a venture would be a successful one, and given that such a base would have to come from Egypt, thus being a further base from say, Central Europe (Sicily and Hungary in particular as they are the closest), it means that even more so, the Crusaders would be on their own against the Indian states.

Not to mention, there is no guarantee that Iran or the Indian Sultanates couldn't still be gunpowder empires if the Crusaders don't get to them first. Just that it's unlikely to be the empires we know of.

 

[St. Just]

Islam doing even better in India could be interesting, especially if led by Sunnis -- a way to expand and redeem the Ummah against the shirkest of all polytheists

 

[Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)]

@TickTock The Witch's Dead (#2,968) - TBH, I won't promise new maps for the time being. :/

@redfire - Thanks for the support!

@Icedaemon - Thanks for the compliment. As for the Kingdom of Syria and its relation to Jerusalem... Sort of. The Kingdom of Syria is very much independent from Jerusalem, but, for the sake of diplomacy, they will preserve the facade of subordination to the Jerusalem - even if they might stress that their allegiance is in fact to the Papacy - as long as it is convenient to them.

@Babyrage - Thanks for the support! Well, the Catepanate of Syria is still intact (comprising the former Frankish County of Tyre), but it is in a complicated situation in terms of manpower. The nobles until then affiliated to the Bohemondines abandoned it, and likely found service under Emese or Damascus. They still have a standing army of Rhômaîon soldiers and local Syrian mercenaries, but they are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. This doesn't means this will be the last we'll be seeing about them, though.

@TickTock The Witch's Dead, @Gabrielico - I'm excited as well with exploring this idea of the Crusadist movement expanding as far as India. As you predicted, this spirit of military adventure will go hand-to-hand with the maritime discoveries. IOTL it did had a significant impact in the Portuguese and Spanish endeavors in the Americas, in Africa and Asia, so here ITTL will be even stronger.

@Quinkana - as @DanMcCollum said below your post, England is still under the rule of the House of Normandy. Currently, the monarch is William IV, the son of OTL deceased William Adelin (who "allohistorically" ruled as William III). They have yet to play a more relevant role in the Crusades, and this explains why they are seldom mentioned, but I intend to explore their situation in better detail.

@सार्थक (Sārthākā) (#2,980) @Asasyn13 @bobbins @cmakk1012 @Noblesse Oblige @St. Just - About the fate of Islam, so far I have some broad ideas. Overall, Islam will be severely impacted not only by the Crusades, but also by the Mongol Invasions, as per OTL, and by the successive fragmentation of the Khanate. There, will, however, be a significant ressurgence under what would be analogue to the Ilkhanate, and under the later Persianate dynasties which come to rule Persia. As some of you predicted in other discussions on this matter, with the loss of Egypt, North Africa and Syria (and later likely of Baghdad, but its demise won't necessarily happen as it did IOTL), the intellectual and cultural heart of Islam will be firmly consolidated in the Persian region - here including the Persianized parts of Central Asia (mainly Khorasan and Khwarazm). Which will have important consequences, because, much like it happened with the Ottomans, the idea of the Caliphal dignity being associated with the hegemonic ruler will be a constant allure of the Persian dynasties.

Afterwards, I can't really say more as I'll await for the TL to develop more to think about important details. I have some ideas for a Timur-analogue (even though Timur himself likely won't exist, because by then the TL will have diverged to much from the POD). Its interesting to conceive an era of "gunpowder empires", and how they will interact with the Crusader States. As always, ideas are welcomed.

However, I'll be making a conscious effort to avoid the "pendulum fallacy" which is often criticized in AH works (meaning that if Islam "fails" in Africa and western Asia, it somehow should be more successful in, say, Southeast Asia or eastern Africa). I'll try to address the question as I believe its plausible in the context of the TL.​

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I’ve read a Capetian England TL called The Lucky Marriage and I wonder if the Capets would try to conquer England in a reverse Hundred Years War.

 

[cmakk1012]

I think the potential is there ITTL for Islam as a whole to eventually be singularly dominated by Persia. Morocco will likely survive along with Islam in East Africa and India/Nusantara, but Persia will be its cultural and possibly political heart. Indian sultanates are always in the precarious position of being minority rulers in a foreign land and here will be even more vulnerable from Christian Crusaders, Nusantara may well become less Muslim than OTL, and East Africa and Morocco are pretty peripheral to the Muslim world. A Persian Caliphate could plausibly end up claiming allegiance from almost all of Islam eventually, to a greater extent than the Ottomans accomplished IOTL. Hell, someone there might even try to mend the Sunni-Shia schism…although I doubt they’d succeed.

 

[St. Just]

Honestly I think a de facto schism is likely; there will be the West African sphere and then the Persianate-Horn-Indian Ocean sphere. A greater Persian influence on the Somalis would be pretty neat, ngl.

 

[Asasyn13]

In my opinion, Islam may end up with a scenario similar to the OTL of Christianity. The lands from Outremer to Indus will be merged into one empire similar to our Byzantium, with the dominant Persian culture and religion subordinate to the ruler. Morocco would most likely become something like Ethiopia, while East Africa, India and Nusantara could resemble the situation of the Roman Catholic west.

 

[cmakk1012]

Honestly I think a de facto schism is likely; there will be the West African sphere and then the Persianate-Horn-Indian Ocean sphere. A greater Persian influence on the Somalis would be pretty neat, ngl.

The Sultanate of Kilwa held that its ruling dynasty originated in Persia IOTL (mythically or not is uncertain), so I can easily see them aligning firmly with the Persians ITTL.

 

[Asasyn13]

Honestly I think a de facto schism is likely; there will be the West African sphere and then the Persianate-Horn-Indian Ocean sphere. A greater Persian influence on the Somalis would be pretty neat, ngl.

I think that the "Moroccan" area will be rather isolated from other Muslim countries and thus somewhat "forgotten" (something like Ethiopia in OTL).
Plus, I rather doubt Somalia-preserving Islam when the Crusaders conquer Egypt. More likely for me, in East Africa, Muhammad's followers will be driven south of the Abyssinian Plateau.

 

[Revalus]

It's possible that Muslims fleeing the fall of Egypt and *Tunisia would flock to Morocco and Al-Andalus, thereby strengthening the governments and military forces in these regions. But that may be risking the pendulum fallacy that the author is apparently not fond of. On the other hand, in OTL, the fall of Al-Andalus and Granada and the resulting flight of Muslims (and Jews) enriched and helped strengthen Morocco and the Ottoman Empire.

 

[cmakk1012]

Al-Andalus is very unlikely to survive in a world where crusading has become a regular European pastime. Morocco has geography helping it; Andalusia has geography hindering it.

Plus, I rather doubt Somalia-preserving Islam when the Crusaders conquer Egypt. More likely for me, in East Africa, Muhammad's followers will be driven south of the Abyssinian Plateau.

There’s a whole lotta desert between Egypt and the Horn, and I don’t see why the Crusaders would care overmuch about it, at least at first. It’s more likely an emboldened Ethiopia snatches it up than the Crusaders, or else it stays Muslim.

 

[St. Just]

Conquering Somalia is probably too troublesome for the meager reward it offers -- Mogadishu had not yet become a major port, traversing the Ogaden is a bitch, and the locals won't exaclty be receptive. If its conquered at all, it'd probably be by Oromos prevented from invading Ethiopia

 

[Quinkana]

Conquering Somalia is probably too troublesome for the meager reward it offers -- Mogadishu had not yet become a major port, traversing the Ogaden is a bitch, and the locals won't exaclty be receptive. If its conquered at all, it'd probably be by Oromos prevented from invading Ethiopia

I think Ethiopia would vassalise the area/take it when a great king's around.

If anything Ethiopia would take Eritrea I think.

 

[Al-Za’im]

Developments within Islamic jurisprudence and theology will not cease to occur in the Crusadist states, all of whom contain sizeable Muslim minorities/pluralities in certain regions. It is instead likely that Fiqh will center primarily around the circumstances and pressures of Frankish rule. Nevertheless the lack of political and financial support from governing polities that the Ulema traditionally enjoyed will most inevitably facilitate the shift towards Mesopotamia and the Persianate regions as the nexus of Islamic thought. This means that the Islamic West will not be totally separated from its East until (and unless) the Crusadist states enjoy significant success in conversion. It would probably be an exaggeration to describe such division as a schism or that the Maghreb will emerge as an Ethiopia analogy, instead it is likely that the Persianate realm and Maghreb-West Africa will develop quite different strands of thought in particular issues (perhaps even different schools of Fiqh may emerge) without deviating from the status of Ahl-al-Sunnah (Sunni), especially considering the the five schools of Fiqh had proliferated quite firmly across the Islamic world at this point.

It's possible that Muslims fleeing the fall of Egypt and *Tunisia would flock to Morocco and Al-Andalus, thereby strengthening the governments and military forces in these regions. But that may be risking the pendulum fallacy that the author is apparently not fond of. On the other hand, in OTL, the fall of Al-Andalus and Granada and the resulting flight of Muslims (and Jews) enriched and helped strengthen Morocco and the Ottoman Empire.

Considering that this is what occurred in OTL, I don't think it really applies to the Pendulum Fallacy. Andalusi Emigree's became propagators of philosophy and intellect within the Maghreb, as a little anecdote the founder of my tribe in Libya is believed to have been an Andalusi Shaykh fleeing from persecution.

 

[Quinkana]

Tbf about Spain which gets reconquistaed early I'd like to see a different Spain. Maybe with Portugal-Castille and an Aragon that looks around the Med.

I also hope we get a kingdom of Ireland. Maybe an English king that conquers all of Ireland?