I can't imagine why not. Intermarriage was a pretty common practice during this era, and it would help the crusaders create local alliances and bonds of kinship. My guess is, as long as the religious issues are dealt with (i.e. the non-Christian converts), it will be somewhat common.
And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace
- Thread starter Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)
- Start date
I can't imagine why not. Intermarriage was a pretty common practice during this era, and it would help the crusaders create local alliances and bonds of kinship. My guess is, as long as the religious issues are dealt with (i.e. the non-Christian converts), it will be somewhat common.
jocay
Banned
A lot of the nobility and clergy is going to *probably* end up dead from the plague, as IOTL Europe. That leaves lots of room for local Syrians to become socially mobile.
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Oh I get what your saying. Your original response didn’t make much sense without the part.
Thinking of They-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, I realized the interest of Mongols would be incidentally, ITTL, be drawn to the Near East way early.
That's because of Georgia.
IOTL, they came into collision with Georgia barely after chasing down the Khwarezmians into Azerbaijan, resulting in 1222 in the battle of Khunan. ITTL, Georgia is not so isolated as the strong Byzantine empire here borders it. And given the standing alliance between these two, I'd expect the Byzantines to provide some assistance, even if it's too late.
The battle of Khunan was just an incursion, a big reconnaissance, so if any further clashes happen, the result would not be significant until the Mongols really commit to it.
In worst case scenario, this could draw Gengis Khan or Ogodei ( Gengis died IOTL only in 1227 and his succesion by Ogodei was rather smooth) into invading the Empire by the late 1220s or early 1230s (they already hold onto Persian highlands and Kalka river gave them virtual domination of the Ukrainian steppes, so they can launch a two pronged attacks into Anatolia and Balkans).
As for the knightly order, that's by definition an order, where training is a mean to an end and not an end in itself, the service in that order being that end; you are guanranteed a training, but that's part of your engagement into the order and your service here, not some school lessons on tactics, strategy or physical training you can get just for the goal of getting trained. So in my mind, the concept of this evolving into a military school of sorts is not fitting the mold. Plus, there is no underlying trend and circumstances that justify, beyond 'divine author intervention', making this going true. There is some reason it took until the 18th century to happen, and it's not after 45 years of butterflies, or event a century, that we are going to change that.
EDIT : However, there was already an oncoming if not ongoing pattern of establishing medical and law schools across the Mediterranean in this time. What can be considered is whether or not accelerating this trend here.
That's because of Georgia.
IOTL, they came into collision with Georgia barely after chasing down the Khwarezmians into Azerbaijan, resulting in 1222 in the battle of Khunan. ITTL, Georgia is not so isolated as the strong Byzantine empire here borders it. And given the standing alliance between these two, I'd expect the Byzantines to provide some assistance, even if it's too late.
The battle of Khunan was just an incursion, a big reconnaissance, so if any further clashes happen, the result would not be significant until the Mongols really commit to it.
In worst case scenario, this could draw Gengis Khan or Ogodei ( Gengis died IOTL only in 1227 and his succesion by Ogodei was rather smooth) into invading the Empire by the late 1220s or early 1230s (they already hold onto Persian highlands and Kalka river gave them virtual domination of the Ukrainian steppes, so they can launch a two pronged attacks into Anatolia and Balkans).
These retinues are tied to the persona of the lord, and not to an institution. As such, they rely on that persona to exist and wouldn't survive them.
As for the knightly order, that's by definition an order, where training is a mean to an end and not an end in itself, the service in that order being that end; you are guanranteed a training, but that's part of your engagement into the order and your service here, not some school lessons on tactics, strategy or physical training you can get just for the goal of getting trained. So in my mind, the concept of this evolving into a military school of sorts is not fitting the mold. Plus, there is no underlying trend and circumstances that justify, beyond 'divine author intervention', making this going true. There is some reason it took until the 18th century to happen, and it's not after 45 years of butterflies, or event a century, that we are going to change that.
EDIT : However, there was already an oncoming if not ongoing pattern of establishing medical and law schools across the Mediterranean in this time. What can be considered is whether or not accelerating this trend here.
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A further precision, at the time, even though it would be later eclipsed by Montpellier, the most famous medical school around by the 12th century remained the Salernitan school. Why I mention this? Well, I remembered some prince who is 'of Salerno', ain't he?
If of any use for the narrative, this can add a political dimension to the scholar race. I'd see here the Guilhemids, in Montpellier or in Acre (or both, though one way or another, both cities being tied through dynastical and commercial links, one's school would spur the development of the other's ), creating a medical school earlier ITTL to rival that of Salerno amidst the context of Norman-Provencal rivalry in the Levant.
If of any use for the narrative, this can add a political dimension to the scholar race. I'd see here the Guilhemids, in Montpellier or in Acre (or both, though one way or another, both cities being tied through dynastical and commercial links, one's school would spur the development of the other's ), creating a medical school earlier ITTL to rival that of Salerno amidst the context of Norman-Provencal rivalry in the Levant.
I can definitely see Buri inspiring mujahedin for centuries to come -- and it looks like the final collapse of the Seljuq monarchy will allow the Romans to consolidate their part of Armenia. Will the Georgians induce conversion or outright conquer the Shaddadids or Shirvan? Also wondering where Theoderic of Alsace (and hopefully some Bretons) will get some land now that the Roman campaign in Armenia is over...
Yes, that would be interesting. Some sort of proto-Saladin.
The Georgians might be content with a policy of clientelage for some time, but, in the long run, I believe they'll try to make their bid for an overall conversion of Azerbaijan and northern Armenia.
Also, Thierry stays!
I'll try, but by now you know I'm not exactly a cartographer.
Yeah, the revolt is not something really big, but I figure it would make sense for it happen in a period whereas the Crusaders are in a distant campaign, and the Levant is undermanned. You'll see that it is simply a peasant insurrection that won't have much of an impact in the circumstances, but now that you pointed it out, I'll consider revising it. Indeed doesn't seems to be making much of sense.
Actually, the Hungarians will be going home soon enough, so don't expect Hungarian Egyptians right now, albeit this would be interesting.
Yeah, by now the Crusaders won't have a lot of fuel to go to Baghdad. The idea will simply die out.
The shepherd's pass is an invention of mine. Nothing too serious.
Good points! Thanks for the input, I'll have this in mind. But you must've realized I avoid getting down to details in the composition of troops.
Thanks very much
!!Indeed they are! Let's see how it unfolds.
Non nobis, Domine...
They should... but will they?
LOL, this makes me think I've never tried to read a TL while on booze. Hope it has been an interesting read nonetheless!! But answering it: it is as separate chapter.
Remove keb... hol' up... forget it.
Just to clarify: I intend to answer all the posts after the last chapter, and let's get down to debate!
HOWEVER, (and now I'm bringing some news!), I'll be experiencing some delay, because in this Friday, I'll be moving away from my native Rio and going to live in São Paulo to take on a new job. I'm very excited to share the news, thank God everything has been going great. This very week, however, as you can imagine, has been a very busy one. Yet, as I see, now that I'm finished a very long cycle of post-college studies, I'll be having more time to dedicate to writing, which is a hobby I prize very much, as you've realized.
Once again, I'll bid you just a little bit of patience so we can resume the story
HOWEVER, (and now I'm bringing some news!), I'll be experiencing some delay, because in this Friday, I'll be moving away from my native Rio and going to live in São Paulo to take on a new job. I'm very excited to share the news, thank God everything has been going great. This very week, however, as you can imagine, has been a very busy one. Yet, as I see, now that I'm finished a very long cycle of post-college studies, I'll be having more time to dedicate to writing, which is a hobby I prize very much, as you've realized.
Once again, I'll bid you just a little bit of patience so we can resume the story
Just to clarify: I intend to answer all the posts after the last chapter, and let's get down to debate!
HOWEVER, (and now I'm bringing some news!), I'll be experiencing some delay, because in this Friday, I'll be moving away from my native Rio and going to live in São Paulo to take on a new job. I'm very excited to share the news, thank God everything has been going great. This very week, however, as you can imagine, has been a very busy one. Yet, as I see, now that I'm finished a very long cycle of post-college studies, I'll be having more time to dedicate to writing, which is a hobby I prize very much, as you've realized.
Once again, I'll bid you just a little bit of patience so we can resume the story
Congrats on the new job! I'm looking forward to a pretty substantial move in the near future myself, so I know how exciting and terrifying that can all be.
May we ask what your new job is?
Congrats on the new job! I'm looking forward to a pretty substantial move in the near future myself, so I know how exciting and terrifying that can all be.
May we ask what your new job is?
I'm taking an office in the Federal Judiciary here in Brazil, as a civil servant. I'll be taking an initial preparatory course for some months in São Paulo (city), but in the next year it is very probable that I'll be moving again, this time to Mato Grosso do Sul, another state, that belongs to the same Federal "Circuit". I believe that in some months, perhaps one or couple years, I'll be permitted to move back to São Paulo state. Its kinda complicated, but there are specific procedures to allow these regional transfers.
I think you're from the US, so it's good to say that, here, public officers in general are nominated after a public examination; its very different from many other countries (where usually one is simply "hired" by contract, or nominated by another authority, such as the Chief of Staff, or Governor or the President), because we're not exactly contracted to work in the state bureaucracy, but rather "invested" in it.
trajen777
Banned
CongratsJust to clarify: I intend to answer all the posts after the last chapter, and let's get down to debate!
HOWEVER, (and now I'm bringing some news!), I'll be experiencing some delay, because in this Friday, I'll be moving away from my native Rio and going to live in São Paulo to take on a new job. I'm very excited to share the news, thank God everything has been going great. This very week, however, as you can imagine, has been a very busy one. Yet, as I see, now that I'm finished a very long cycle of post-college studies, I'll be having more time to dedicate to writing, which is a hobby I prize very much, as you've realized.
Once again, I'll bid you just a little bit of patience so we can resume the story
Yes, I believe the composition is directly related to tactics. That is why I mentioned the numbers since I have no idea how many crossbow or troops were there. So if the Romans brought 20,000 infantry, the Missiles would be around 7,000 bows and crossbows would be 5,000 missile reliance would be both. I digress though since the Squares, you did mention knights and aristocrats, I assume would be the Crusader side.
Just to add, since I reread the battle, Eastern Roman treatise on cavalry requires any army led by the Emperor would not have less than 8,000 cavalry. So cavalry superiority would depend on how large opposing army would be vs if the Emperor was there since Cavalry wise, Crusader+Emperor army could have 12-15,000 cavalry. So if the Turkish army was around 10,000 purely cavalry, the Christian army would have more cavalry.
Also, the Kataphractoi wont chase the Turks much like what you stated though as they are heavier, banded horse armor, got more options. The Crusader knights could potentially chase them since they got no other way to fight Turkish horse archers except thru melee. Remember the Kataphractoi got also composite bows while a typical knight wont which gives them an option to skirmish along with the other missile troops in the Christian army.
IIRC the Crossbow was practically unheard of in the Middle East until the Crusades, and never really caught on in the ERE apart from with foreign mercenaries so the Rhomanoi archers would probably be using composite bows at this stage
I did not know the Kataphraktoi used bows as well as lances. With better relations between the ERE and the crusaders, perhaps the latter arm some Knights or cavalry as mounted crossbows. Although this is probably at least a generation away.
Scary thought: What if some Rhoman bloke compares crossbows to javelins and introduces shoot by rank tactics?
I did not know the Kataphraktoi used bows as well as lances. With better relations between the ERE and the crusaders, perhaps the latter arm some Knights or cavalry as mounted crossbows. Although this is probably at least a generation away.
Scary thought: What if some Rhoman bloke compares crossbows to javelins and introduces shoot by rank tactics?
Just to clarify: I intend to answer all the posts after the last chapter, and let's get down to debate!
HOWEVER, (and now I'm bringing some news!), I'll be experiencing some delay, because in this Friday, I'll be moving away from my native Rio and going to live in São Paulo to take on a new job. I'm very excited to share the news, thank God everything has been going great. This very week, however, as you can imagine, has been a very busy one. Yet, as I see, now that I'm finished a very long cycle of post-college studies, I'll be having more time to dedicate to writing, which is a hobby I prize very much, as you've realized.
Once again, I'll bid you just a little bit of patience so we can resume the story
Congratulations!
I wonder how effective that would be as a military tactic? Because this sounds very interesting!
The Chinese had been using volley fire crossbow tactics for centuries by this point, so it's presumably a good tactic.