And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace

[galileo-034]

For the love of God, please!!! May all the saints in heaven strike down the next person who mentions the term "Mongol" for the minimum of the next twenty chapters

Fortunately, I'm agnostic, though I'd be also fortunate if I was buddhist, animist, shamanist, or even Jew or Muslim ... ^^

If you don't want to speak of They-who-must-not-be-named, it would be way wiser to propose something else to discuss, to drive the debate's focus onto another subject, another topic, rather than praying, forbidding, censoring or cursing about They-who-must-not-be-named.

Civil wars are a feature, not a bug. Waving THEM away is ignoring the context - Mongolia got so big, round around when they reached Hungary, that perpetual peace between the Khanates became impossible. In a period of relative calm the Mongols could still reach as far as Hungary, but when the calm falls away this ends.

And that is why you have castles - not to hold out forever in Samarkand in the midst of a sea of Mongols, but to hold out in the hills of Hungary or Palestine until the Mongols get called away to do something productive against a rival Khan.

I have some trouble getting this Hungarian argument of sorts.
First, that's the logistics that makes it the far end of possible Mongol expansion, then it is the Mongol civil wars.
I and others have put forwards that logistics were not that major obstacle to an expansion into Europe, and the role of internal infighting among the Mongols have been pointed at as a limiting factor.
But on that last argument, it's feeling as if you're saying there is a cause to effect link between reaching these faraway regions that are eastern Europe and Levant and the start of civil war between Khanates.
I'm definitely not waving away the context, but you're waving away the timing. The invasions of eastern Europe and Levant were lucky enough to the would be victims to coincide with internal strife at times where the context was right the one to spare further invasions. But alter the timing, move the invasions a few years back or a few years forward, delay or precipitate some deaths, and you get all different results.
This is nowhere near a cause to effect link, but just a correlation that can be easily broken. And that's all at this TL author's discretion.

But there is no way for the Mongols to BE in Hungary in 1220, because Hungary (like Palestine) is on the tail end of the Steppe from Mongolia, hence it will always be one of the later locations they can invade.

The battle of Kalka river was in 1223, which followed an incursion into North Caucasus by the Mongols following their campaign in Persia (Gengis Khan was fighting at the Indus river in 1221) and Georgia (battle of Khunan in 1222), so they already had knowledge of the area, and the battle destroyed any serious opposition to their progression in the region.
This battle and the incursion into southern Russia were part of a three years ride of more than 5,500 miles, so Hungary may not have been so much of an unfeasible adventure by Subutai, not to mention the Mongols went in over two years from India to southern Ukraine.
Fortunately for the Hungarians, timing again didn't see Mongols returning in the area before another 15 years and by that time, Ogodei's death pending, the window of opportunity for a full scale invasion of Europe closed too fast. Advance the schedule only by 5 years, and I'd die from the suspense of how the invasion will turn out this time.

 

[galileo-034]

Else, after Kephia, since there is seemingly an ongoing invasion from Egypt and a rebellion in Syria, I guess the project of expedition to Baghdad is pretty much over.
Buri is defeated and Edessa reconquered and avenged maybe, the Byzantines would make it clear they are not very willing to support logistically an expedition to Baghdad (here crusaders have already experienced what it meant to advance without Byzantine logistical support) and the remaining crusaders have to deal with this situation back in Syria and Palestine, and after this is dealt with, I don't see the crusaders from Europe staying any longer away from their homes back in Europe after these years of fighting in Syria, Armenia, Palestine and maybe Sinai.

I mind that we arrive at the 1 crusade per generation limit. The conquest of Egypt would probably have to wait a third crusade call in the 1160s.

 

[Gloss]

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The advantage of the Song vs Crusaders are technology, organization, wealth, disciplined armies, logistics. The closest thing that Europe got for the Song are the Eastern Romans. We cannot in anyway say the Crusaders are at parity or near the OTL Song in organization, wealth, tech, disciplined armies or logistics to have any chance to hold or even make more castles that can last for years.

Song China or OTL China is more meritocratic than the Crusaders, which increases the chances of better quality talent pool of leaders to hold a castle for years vs talented generals like Genghis or Subudei. Without quality leaders, all that new castles will be useless due to lack of preparation to hold the castles or capability to hold the castles. That is of course the Crusaders/Georgians can find the money to build new castles(according your specs resist siege weapons for years), supply each castle with years of provisions, equip and pay those manning the castles/cities/fortifications.

On top of that, the Song got more bodies they can throw for an actual resistance. Using the resources and talent pool of 50-60M people is no joke in 1230s nor can than Crusaders replicate.

If the Crusaders are roughly the same as OTL Song China in organization, resources/wealth, tech, I can probably agree with you.

Well you are comparing apples and oranges too, you can't compare concepts such as meritocracy(which you definitely exaggerated anyway, the imperial examination system under the Song and many dynasties was virtually inaccessible for the large majority of the population anyway) or raw demographics.

 

[jocay]

Since we're trying to steer the topic from dreaded steppe nomads, how about education? The Holy Sepulchre was home to a school that taught basic reading and writing Latin to both the children of nobles and the mercantile class but no true universities. One had to go to Europe as the crusaders out of necessity valued warfare than theology or philosophy. Given how Jerusalem is in a much better position relative to the Muslims, it seems inevitable that the future Jerusalemite nobles/royals and merchant are going to prefer to be taught in the Levant. Also enough Crusaders may have visited Constantinople's own Pandidakterion and once Egypt is conquered, see Al-Azhar and want something comparable.

The obvious site for the Crusader State's first university would be in the capital, likely as an extension of the Holy Sepulchre or the Templum Domini, charted by the Prince of Jerusalem. This might even be the first expansion of Jerusalem itself beyond the Old City.

While medieval universities in Europe seemed to have formed out of the efforts from mutual aid societies and the Church, higher education in Jerusalem at least in this time period would be a secondary purpose for the military orders. So maybe universities in Acre, Damascus, Tiberias and Ascalon.

 

[galileo-034]

In that perspective, I think medical schools may be of more interest and therefore of relevance. It's the most practical field for Frank's to expand on, given western science huge disadvantage over greco-arabic medicine.
Ever a fan of Montpellier and the Guilhemids, I'd see Count Guilhem of Acre establishing such a school (Guilhem VIII established such a school in Montpellier in 1181).
Plus, it can be also seen as a move to break whatever hold have the Hospitalers on medical practice and gain prestige.

 

[jocay]

Speaking of which, a military academy situated in the Tower of David or the Antonia fortress would be an ideal development. Sort of like a medieval West Point.

 

[Some Bloke]

So not a university so much as a proto military academy?

 

[jocay]

So not a university so much as a proto military academy?

I'm not the author so I wouldn't know what our based Brazilian is thinking but these universities would essentially start as formalized military academies and branch out for more civilian purposes. Look at all the military technology that has filtered into the civilian sector within the past 25-50 years.

 

[DanMcCollum]

In an effort to do my own part in defeated the Mongol post-horde:

What are the conversion efforts like on the parts of the Crusaders in the lands they control. We know that a number of knightly orders have been established throughout the Principate of Jerusalem, but is there a concerted effort to convert the population to Catholicism? Also, how are these efforts being viewed by the native Christian, Muslim and Jewish populations?

How are Crusader-Judean relations?

 

[galileo-034]

The idea of a military academy looks to me rather anachronistic. From what I know, they didn't appear until the 18th century.

 

[galileo-034]

In an effort to do my own part in defeated the Mongol post-horde:

What are the conversion efforts like on the parts of the Crusaders in the lands they control. We know that a number of knightly orders have been established throughout the Principate of Jerusalem, but is there a concerted effort to convert the population to Catholicism? Also, how are these efforts being viewed by the native Christian, Muslim and Jewish populations?

How are Crusader-Judean relations?

I think @jocay had a good point on this topic in his post from page 82.

By necessity, the Latin lords are tolerant towards their subjects, regardless of religion.
Though settlers from Europe may be more numerous ITTL, I doubt the demographical balance is seriously altered to allow a less tolerant attitude, lest the feudal lords find themselves fighting rebellions all the time and squandering into that fight the wealth they could have won.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

Actually, it would be fascinating to see a military order that emerges out of a university. So as the Knights Hospitaller remained nominally associated with the care of the sick, you have the... Knights Scholarly(?)... where a certain amount of graduates take vows at the end of each year.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

The idea of a military academy looks to me rather anachronistic. From what I know, they didn't appear until the 18th century.

^This I agree with, but its not to say that you can't have a pseudo-military academy, or rather just a university sponsored by one of the military orders (Templars, Hospitallers, Holy Sepulchre, Lazarists). Should Jerusalem survive long enough to see itself the Military Academy technology (in Sidmeierism of course), I wouldn't put it past them to establish their own orders, chiefly in Jerusalem and maybe Acre (as a Naval Academy perhaps?)

 

[DanMcCollum]

^This I agree with, but its not to say that you can't have a pseudo-military academy, or rather just a university sponsored by one of the military orders (Templars, Hospitallers, Holy Sepulchre, Lazarists). Should Jerusalem survive long enough to see itself the Military Academy technology (in Sidmeierism of course), I wouldn't put it past them to establish their own orders, chiefly in Jerusalem and maybe Acre (as a Naval Academy perhaps?)

This somewhat reminds me of the 'knight school's established by William de Tancerville at the Chateau de Tancerville. It was technically simply Tancetrille's household, but it acted as a place for other nobles to send their younger sons to gain military and social training.

Might we see a local noble or Christian Knightly Order established a similar establishment (or,.more than one, for that matter). The frontier state of the Crusader Kingdoms means that having a place to train knights and soldiers would be good for the state, and it might also act as a place for locals to enter, win a name for themselves, and hopefully land in the service of the Prince or other nobles.

 

[trajen777]

I think the securing of the borders, economic development, new farmers from Europe (settlers), and a plan for the third Crusade + Byz for the invasion of Egypt would be the plan if i was the crusader kingdom ---- some Questions comments ?
1. Population of the KOJ now with Muslims leaving (per POD) or staying and new settlers (i imagine lots with the constant success ) ?
2. With the defeat of many of the Muslim kingdoms -- i assume you are left with a weak Mosul - Persia ?? -- not sure about the Arabian peninsula ( is their wealth for raids there ? ) i see the next and really the last thing that the KOJ needs to focus on will be Egypt (unless the Arabian Pensul has wealth to raid -- i know controlling some of the islands to take over the ship trade between Yemen and India would be very valuable (spice islands?) ) but not sure if this can happen until gunpowder (think what Portugal did).
3. So with the massive wealth gained from the 2nd crusade you would have people lined up for a Egypt 3rd crusade.

As always great Job !!!!

 

[TheNerd_]

1. What is the population of the KOJ now with Muslims leaving (per POD) or staying and new settlers (i imagine lots with the constant success)?

@Rdffigueira has stated that he will do an update about that, but from what we know from the start of the 2nd Crusade, the Kingdom isn't as heavily francophone as it was OTL, with Germans, Normans and especially Italians being more of a presence. I assume that Catholics will hold a tenuous plurality, but most of them settled on the cost in Lebanon, while most native Syriac Christians inhabit the interior.

 

[trajen777]

@Rdffigueira has stated that he will do an update about that, but from what we know from the start of the 2nd Crusade, the Kingdom isn't as heavily francophone as it was OTL, with Germans, Normans and especially Italians being more of a presence. I assume that Catholics will hold a tenuous plurality, but most of them settled on the cost in Lebanon, while most native Syriac Christians inhabit the interior.

Thanks -- i think you would see quite a few Orthodox Christians also with the Muslim tax gone --- it would also be interesting to see if you have an influx of Nestorians from the north. Not sure with the strong pres of the Byz how much influence the Italians would have on the eastern med. If you take away or reduce the control of the black sea, the advantageous tariffs in Constantinople, and the lack of ports (Crete etc) to the KOJ, the Italians would be a bit of a backwater area. Just like the concentric circle of wealth generated by the capture of inland areas by the crusaders you would have a decrease in wealth for the Italian cities from a strong Byz.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

I wonder if we’ll ever see a higher degree of intermarriage between the local populations and the crusaders. Or see local Christians rise through the ranks. Or will it always be the latins on top and the locals on the bottom.

 

[jocay]

I wonder if we’ll ever see a higher degree of intermarriage between the local populations and the crusaders. Or see local Christians rise through the ranks. Or will it always be the latins on top and the locals on the bottom.

If we get steppe nomads who shall not be named, we're almost certainly going to have a Black Plague.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

If we get steppe nomads who shall not be named, we're almost certainly going to have a Black Plague.

What’s that got to do with my post?