Assyrians made up the majority of northern Iraq's population until Tamerlane's invasion so assuming that there is an Assyrian campaign, the Crusaders would find themselves a large group of potential allies. And of course Patriarch in Constantinople and Pope in Rome would both make overtures trying to bring the Nestorians under their spiritual authority.
 
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Assyrians made up the majority of northern Iraq's population until Tamerlane's invasion so assuming that there is an Assyrian campaign, the Crusaders would find themselves a large group of potential allies. And of course Patriarch in Constantinople and Pope in Rome would both make overtures trying to bring the Nestorians under their spiritual authority.

How strong is the Nestorian Church at this point? I'm sure it's far and away from its heyday when that branch of Christianity was "officially/unofficially" supported by the Sasanians (despite them probably wishing they were Zoroastrian instead).
 
Assyrians made up the majority of northern Iraq's population until Tamerlane's invasion so assuming that there is an Assyrian campaign, the Crusaders would find themselves a large group of potential allies. And of course Patriarch in Constantinople and Pope in Rome would both make overtures trying to bring the Nestorians under their spiritual authority.

How strong is the Nestorian Church at this point? I'm sure it's far and away from its heyday when that branch of Christianity was "officially/unofficially" supported by the Sasanians (despite them probably wishing they were Zoroastrian instead).

Looking at Wikipedia as a preliminary source, per OTL, the Church of the East was actually going through a period of expansion within the Middle Ages, expanding beyond northern Iraq, northeastern Syria and southeastern Turkey, converting and establishing the Saint Thomas Christian community in Kerala, briefly having a period in China for some 200 years before being gone by the 10th century, and expanding into Central Asia. One last expansion would occur following the Mongol Empire's successes, and even returning to China at that point as well. It wasn't until Timur took power that a decline began, and it helped not that the Black Death fucked things up too.

And then, last but not least, the Schism of 1552, leading to the fracturing of the Church of the East into two main factions, one that entered into full communion with the Catholic Church and the other independent. I would give names here, but just giving Wikipedia a glance, there seems to be a whole other store behind this stuff. It's actually really fascinating, from the apparent circumstances of the aforementioned schism, to the wackiness that is the division of the Church of the East and how it eventually led to the current independent Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East.
 
Looking at Wikipedia as a preliminary source, per OTL, the Church of the East was actually going through a period of expansion within the Middle Ages, expanding beyond northern Iraq, northeastern Syria and southeastern Turkey, converting and establishing the Saint Thomas Christian community in Kerala, briefly having a period in China for some 200 years before being gone by the 10th century, and expanding into Central Asia. One last expansion would occur following the Mongol Empire's successes, and even returning to China at that point as well. It wasn't until Timur took power that a decline began, and it helped not that the Black Death fucked things up too.

And then, last but not least, the Schism of 1552, leading to the fracturing of the Church of the East into two main factions, one that entered into full communion with the Catholic Church and the other independent. I would give names here, but just giving Wikipedia a glance, there seems to be a whole other store behind this stuff. It's actually really fascinating, from the apparent circumstances of the aforementioned schism, to the wackiness that is the division of the Church of the East and how it eventually led to the current independent Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East.

Wait, Holy Apostolic Catholic? As in, within communion with the Pope in Rome? That's some high level theological chess right there if that's true. Though if its going through a growing period now, I kinda have my doubts that we'll be seeing the Assyrians align to heavily with either the Patriarch of Constantinople or the Pentarch of Rome.
 
Wait, Holy Apostolic Catholic? As in, within communion with the Pope in Rome? That's some high level theological chess right there if that's true.

Funnily enough, that's part of the shenanigans involving the Schism of 1552. Two main lines established themselves, one under Patriarch Yohannan Sulaqa, otherwise known as Shimun, and Patriarch Eliya VII. Shimun's line would go on to found the Chaldean Catholic Church. The Eliya line ended in 1804, having experienced two splits in the meantime, resulting in the 1681 split under Patriarch Joseph, and the 1780 split under Patriarch Yohannan VII Hormizd. These two lines would be merged later on in 1827. Meanwhile, the Shimun line actually broke from Rome in 1600 after they reintroduced hereditary succession, and then formally broke communion with Rome in 1692, with this line eventually becoming the Assyrian Church of the East, while Hormizd's line takes over the Chaldean Catholic Church.

At least, I think that's what happened, based on cursory reads. It's crazy and I love it. I'd recommend reading further into it, it looks fascinating.
 
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Assyrians made up the majority of northern Iraq's population until Tamerlane's invasion so assuming that there is an Assyrian campaign, the Crusaders would find themselves a large group of potential allies. And of course Patriarch in Constantinople and Pope in Rome would both make overtures trying to bring the Nestorians under their spiritual authority.

If the Byzantines are going to control all of historic Armenia if they succeed then it wouldn’t be too hard to imagine them taking control over historical Assyria. Imagine Mosul being an Assyrian capital.
 
If the Byzantines are going to control all of historic Armenia if they succeed then it wouldn’t be too hard to imagine them taking control over historical Assyria. Imagine Mosul being an Assyrian capital.
Or Assur itself. The ancient city was still inhabited (again until Tamerlane showed up) but a shadow of their former self.
 
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@Icedaemon - fair points, my friend. I'll revise the previous chapter with this in mind. In any case, all of this made me conclude that I need to research a littler more before simply making up alternate terminology.

@RandomWriterGuy and @Sarufiyyun - the Second Crusade will mark, at least for the time being, the highest point of the Crusader advance into the Armenia/Mesopotamia area. It is very possible that we see continued Byzantine incursions in the region, however, but I don't see them effectivelly annexing anything well beyond Armenia, it would bring them uncomfortably close to the more organized and formidable centers of Islamic power. I figure they would rather have Mosul, for example, established as a buffer state.

As for the mention of the Arab nationalism, it is something I've honestly not given much thought. I believe it is far too of a modern (post 19th C.) phenomenon to be considered possible with such an early divergence. In any case, I find it more probable that Arab identity will eventually become more strongly consolidated around the Islamic identity, much like OTL, and Christian Arabs will be seen by exclusion, as Palestinians, Syrians, or others, but not as Arabs.

@Noblesse Oblige and @Damian0358 - good points about the Assyrians and the Nestorian Church. Its a topic to which I ought to dedicate much more research, considering I don't really know much from the top of my head.

Funny thing that you brought this topic, actually, because the next part of the Interlude will be dedicated to religion, so I'll be tackling on this matter into greater detail. I did not intend to adress Nestorianism, but now I'm more interesting in entering this one bit, and they will become particularly more relevant in time, when we see the Mongol invasions.
 
TBH I think a reverse Chaldean Catholicism could be a possibility -- the rulers of basically the entirety of the Holy Land are going to chafe at Rome eventually, and unless they pull an Ain Jalut will have trouble with a possibly Nestorian Mongols. Dyophysite theology is closer to Chalcedonian thought than the Miaphysites IIRC, and in any case most people won't mind the difference. It might also be a way to curb the power of the Knightly Orders or divorce them from Europe while also centralizing religious legitimacy within the KOJ as opposed to in Rome.
 
If you don’t mind me asking do you have a map that shows what things look like as of 1042?

And what’s up with this count of Sidon that was a former Fatimid commander before swearing loyalty to boehemund and becoming a Christian?
 
Or Assur itself. The ancient city was still inhabited (again until Tamerlane showed up) but a shadow of their former self.

From what I looked it was abandoned after the Parthian Empire. At this point it's pretty much ruins.

@RandomWriterGuy and @Sarufiyyun - the Second Crusade will mark, at least for the time being, the highest point of the Crusader advance into the Armenia/Mesopotamia area. It is very possible that we see continued Byzantine incursions in the region, however, but I don't see them effectivelly annexing anything well beyond Armenia, it would bring them uncomfortably close to the more organized and formidable centers of Islamic power. I figure they would rather have Mosul, for example, established as a buffer state.

As for the mention of the Arab nationalism, it is something I've honestly not given much thought. I believe it is far too of a modern (post 19th C.) phenomenon to be considered possible with such an early divergence. In any case, I find it more probable that Arab identity will eventually become more strongly consolidated around the Islamic identity, much like OTL, and Christian Arabs will be seen by exclusion, as Palestinians, Syrians, or others, but not as Arabs.

When you mean Armenia, you also mean the Azerbaijani regions that have been occupied by Armenians right?

And as for Arab nationalism, Christian Arabs have also played a part in its development in OTL. I did theorized that if a Christian Arab threw the Europeans out that Christianity could become a major thing again in the Middle East. Hell Arab nationalism could be mostly secular.
 
TBH I think a reverse Chaldean Catholicism could be a possibility -- the rulers of basically the entirety of the Holy Land are going to chafe at Rome eventually, and unless they pull an Ain Jalut will have trouble with a possibly Nestorian Mongols. Dyophysite theology is closer to Chalcedonian thought than the Miaphysites IIRC, and in any case most people won't mind the difference. It might also be a way to curb the power of the Knightly Orders or divorce them from Europe while also centralizing religious legitimacy within the KOJ as opposed to in Rome.

Well that's assuming we'll get far enough to determine whether or not the LPoJ will be following the more protestant trends in Europe.

When you mean Armenia, you also mean the Azerbaijani regions that have been occupied by Armenians right?

I didn't know Azerbaijan was around that long. XD

But a Byzantine Empire that absorbed all of Greater Armenia would be a bit of a stretch, wouldn't it?
 
@Icedaemon and @St. Just - to be fair, I hadn't seriously considered the possibility of Nestorian Mongols until now. I figured that they wouldn't see important divergences (meaning that their invasions and administrative establishments will happen in schedule) until they enter in contact with alt-Byzantium and the alt-Crusader State. From there onwards... who knows? In any case, it does seems more likely to me that they will remain Tengriist with a multiconfessional elite before assimilating into local social mores, as they did IOTL. I confess that I find the idea of one Mongol Khan seriously converting to Nestorianism is pretty fascinating, and will bring world-changing divergences.

About the politico-religious relations of the Crusader State, that's another big food for thought, but, in the long run, I believe you've brought a very reasonable assessment @St. Just. It is probable that matters of political interest start to create rifts between the Papacy and the Crusader entities (even though, I believe this won't happen in the High Middle Ages period, at least not to the point of generating a schism altogether).

Would you care about developing more this specific post of yours? I'm interested in seeing what you have in mind.

If you don’t mind me asking do you have a map that shows what things look like as of 1042? And what’s up with this count of Sidon that was a former Fatimid commander before swearing loyalty to boehemund and becoming a Christian?

There's a map in one of the threadmarks the shows things before the Second Crusade (though, it is more focused in the Levant than in Armenia), but I don't have a more updated map just yet.

About the Count of Sidon, it's just one of these minor anecdotal events that won't be relevant in the long run. You'll see a lot of these in the TL, take them as less significant footnotes in the grand scheme of the ahistorical narrative. But, now that you've brought it, we can think about mentioning these odd episodes in a more specific fashuon.

@RandomWriterGuy - Armenia here is just the territory comprising the Bagratuni kingdom. It doesn't includes Azerbaijan. ITTL, the Byzantines have only annexed the southwestern part of the country, but Georgia will expand to include most of the northern half of it. The rest of the former kingdom will likely remain in control of the neighboring Islamic powers, most notably - since you mentioned it - the Shirvanshahs. See below:

Bagratuni_Armenia_1000-en.svg

Good points about Arab nationalism, but then, again, it is something very further down the line for us to be delving in detail right now.

@AspieMan - just like @cmakk1012 said. In the way it happened historically, as we know it, it WON'T happen. Butterflies are flying wild already.

Now, erm... TBH I must admit I'm not sure why we're talking about the Assyrians right now. The so-called "Assyrian Church" doesn't have, as I see it, any sort of identity continuum with the ancient political concept of Assyria. By the 12th C., it is just a geographic denomination. In any case, the region will remain under control of Mosul for the time being, and later, other Islamic entities that suceed it. We won't be seeing any sort of regional ressurgence this early, and the Byzantines won't go advancing deep into it to provoke such an impact. Later centuries, who knows? IOTL we are nowadays discussing the possibility of forming a Kurdish State, something that was unconceivable some centuries ago.

EDIT: Got Ninja'd by @Noblesse Oblige - Indeed, Byzantium won't grab all of the kingdom of Armenia, just its western parts. In fact, as mentioned above, the main benefactor of the weakening of the Armenian Islamic emirates will be the Kingdom of Georgia, which will likely double in territory. Byzantium will be more content with having a strong frontier to establish their defense-in-depth strategies in northern Syria and in Anatolia, probably with a cordon of less hostile Armenian provincial entities serving as a buffer against the more aggressive Muslim enemies.
 
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Skallagrim

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I hadn't seriously considered the possibility of Nestorian Mongols until now. I figured that they wouldn't see important divergences (meaning that their invasions and administrative establishments will happen in schedule) until they enter in contact with alt-Byzantium and the alt-Crusader State. From there onwards... who knows? In any case, it does seems more likely to me that they will remain Tengriist with a multiconfessional elite before assimilating into local social mores, as they did IOTL. I confess that I find the idea of one Mongol Khan seriously converting to Nestorianism is pretty fascinating, and will bring world-changing divergences.
I must admit I'm not sure why we're talking about the Assyrians right now. The so-called "Assyrian Church" doesn't have, as I see it, any sort of identity continuum with the ancient political concept of Assyria.
I assume that in this discussion, when people mention the Assyrians, they refer to the Assyrian Christians. The point is that in OTL, these fellows call themselves "The Assyrian Church of the East", and claim continuity with the historical "Church of the East". That is: the Nestorian Church. They're not even wrong, although the descent is a bit more muddied than they like to pretend. (But that's not a mark against them: all religions tend to do that!)

So, to make sure there are no misunderstandings: Assyrian Christianity = Nestorian Christianity. As mentioned already, it underwent a bit of a revival, historically, which might become relevant. Particularly because in OTL, the last bout of Nestorian expansion was thanks to the Mongols. The Mongol Empire was religiously tolerant, and Nestorianism thrived and spread. The turning point was 1295, when Ghazan (the ruler of the Ilkhanate) converted to Islam upon taking the throne. The religious toleration soon faded away, and Nestorianism went into steep decline.

It seems to me that while "A Khan seriously converting to Nestorianism" would be very interesting indeed, OTL demonstrates a few relevant factors. For starters, even when Nestorianism was widely-spread, when the pivot of the Ilkhanate to "Islam as the official religion" basically cut off the Nestorians in the Far East from those in the (Assyrian) heartland of the religion, Nestorianism soon withered away in the Far East. Only small remnants survived. In addition, the Mongol Empire is set to fall apart in the end. So as long as an islamic Ilkhanate is happening, Nestorianism still gets shafted.

If you want to run with the idea of a continued Nestorian revival, I'd say the best bet would be to have the leader of the (alt-)Ilkhanate convert to Nestorianism instead of Islam, and to turn it into the state religion. With that premise, you could eventually end up with a pretty big Nestorian-majority region. With a committed Nestorian power occupying the space between the Assyrian heartland and Central Asia (and India!), Nestorianism could (and probably would) continue to spread East. Everything from Mesopotamia on eastward that's islamic in OTL could quite literally end up being Nestorian instead.

(If we think of this in the context of the Crusaders eventually taking Egypt, thus cutting North Africa off from Arabia, as well as the prospect of a Reconquista being pushed further onward into North Africa... well, then this might end up becoming a TL where Islam is much-reduced in the East and the West, remaining dominant only in Arabia itself. Basically a scenario where, over the span of ages, all the Islamic conquests are reversed in the end. And int may also end up being a scenario where Catholicism ultimately considers Nestorianism to be the "existential foe in the East". Naturally, that's all pure speculation on my part, but I wanted to point out this possibility.)
 
Now, erm... TBH I must admit I'm not sure why we're talking about the Assyrians right now. The so-called "Assyrian Church" doesn't have, as I see it, any sort of identity continuum with the ancient political concept of Assyria. By the 12th C., it is just a geographic denomination. In any case, the region will remain under control of Mosul for the time being, and later, other Islamic entities that suceed it. We won't be seeing any sort of regional ressurgence this early, and the Byzantines won't go advancing deep into it to provoke such an impact. Later centuries, who knows? IOTL we are nowadays discussing the possibility of forming a Kurdish State, something that was unconceivable some centuries ago.

I assume that in this discussion, when people mention the Assyrians, they refer to the Assyrian Christians. The point is that in OTL, these fellows call themselves "The Assyrian Church of the East", and claim continuity with the historical "Church of the East". That is: the Nestorian Church. They're not even wrong, although the descent is a bit more muddied than they like to pretend. (But that's not a mark against them: all religions tend to do that!)

Though that is the direction the conversation ended up going in (due to Sarufiyyun's mention of the Nestorians), I presume that, in the original post that brought it up, by Assyrians, RandomWriterGuy was referring to the Aramaic speakers, the marginalized ethnic group that bares the same name as the church.

Thinking about marginalized ethnic groups reminds me of the Romani too. I wonder what their place in the KoJ will be, considering the fact that they reached the Balkans as early as the 12th century, with historical records of them reaching south-eastern Europe from the 14th.
 
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