And All Nations Shall Gather To It - A Crusades TL

Perhaps it could be called something else. Probably not Palestine. The thing is though even if the Jews were somewhat hated in Europe around this time, they'd still be seen as culturally closer to the Christian settlers than the Muslim invaders. So maybe a Judaeo-Christian state? I'd have to read up on this timeline as well.
yah I suggest you read the timeline then come back to this questions
 
Israel as we know it would be totally beyond the pale. A Crusader kingdom is not giving any part of Jerusalem or indeed the Holy Land to a non christian entity , it goes against their core belief and rational for existing. Not saying there would not be a Jewish homeland or Jews in a modern crusader state, but not anything like OTL
 
Israel as we know it would be totally beyond the pale. A Crusader kingdom is not giving any part of Jerusalem or indeed the Holy Land to a non christian entity , it goes against their core belief and rational for existing. Not saying there would not be a Jewish homeland or Jews in a modern crusader state, but not anything like OTL
it certainly will be a place where they reside thougth, just by the sheer diversity of its population i cannot see it survive without a policy of tolerance(with jewish expulsions they will probably be a big ethnic group)
 
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Israel as we know it would be totally beyond the pale. A Crusader kingdom is not giving any part of Jerusalem or indeed the Holy Land to a non christian entity , it goes against their core belief and rational for existing. Not saying there would not be a Jewish homeland or Jews in a modern crusader state, but not anything like OTL
The major economic, and personal monetary, gains, by inviting Jewish merchants and their families from other less tolerant countries, would outweigh that, handily. Just look to the Prussian monarchs and Brandenburger dukes, who were very anti-semitic, to say the least, but still allowed the Jews into their country, because of monetary gains. Besides, the bible says Isreal is the homeland of the Jews, which is a great excuse for letting them into the Outremer; money will often, more than not, outweigh any sort of reasoning. Just look at the slave trade between Africa and Europe, the Europeans knew that what they were doing was wrong, according to their religion, but they still did it anyway, for more money.
 
The major economic, and personal monetary, gains, by inviting Jewish merchants and their families from other less tolerant countries, would outweigh that,
Many things will happen over time but a surviving Crusader Kingdom(s) will have being christian at the core of its( their) identity. So non Christians will be like non jews in OTL Israel, basically non equals who have to conform, to what will be in this case, a very Christian based law . Anything that even hints Jews might have a claim on the land will be considered treasonous, no one wants to encourage a fifth column. Medieval times, it was commonly believed that the Jews were cast out of Israel due to their wickedness and so have forfeited any claim to the Holy Land.

Immigration will be encouraged from christian lands with the more devout and fanatical likely to dominate those who come. This will likely have a simular effect to Jewish migration to OTL Israel. So you get a situation with a growing christian population that is less tolerant of non christians over time. Not throwing out Jews in is one thing , letting them have different laws etc is another. Frankly as Zionism is not a big thing till quite late, the attraction to Jews will be less than nil, the Muslim states tended to be more tolerant than christian ones in this period.
 
Out of curiosity, why would the famously intolerant Crusaders invite Jewish families from Europe when they could invite in Greek and Armenian Christians who can serve the same role? Plus it would increase the economic ties between Jerusalem and Constantinople.
 
Out of curiosity, why would the famously intolerant Crusaders invite Jewish families from Europe when they could invite in Greek and Armenian Christians who can serve the same role? Plus it would increase the economic ties between Jerusalem and Constantinople.
The heathen is always a lesser threat than the heretic. After all your people might actually listen to the priest from Anatolia.
 
Out of curiosity, why would the famously intolerant Crusaders invite Jewish families from Europe when they could invite in Greek and Armenian Christians who can serve the same role? Plus it would increase the economic ties between Jerusalem and Constantinople.
They would not the jews by themselves would probably arrive in the kingdom after expulsions(whether the kingdom expels them as well remains to be seen),but it is true that a lot of greeks and Armenians will immigrate as well
 
If the Levantine counts grow reasonably tolerant of the muslim population out of necessity (how many serf families would realistically move to the holy land to work it for these lords, aside from some men-at-arms who maybe retire and marry a local girl? And I am quite sure the pre-exisiting eastern christan groups would be too small to provide upkeep for this many professional fighting men) it would be quite hypocritical of them to not extend the same rights to the Jews. They might be second-class citizens in their ancestral homeland, but it might still be better than large parts of Europe.

That said, weren't the orthodox Romans relatively tolerant of Jews in this time, seeing them as not a threat by virtue of being more concerned with their peers potential plots and muslim civilians acting as a potential fifth column should there be another major attack from the east? Perhaps in this timeline, Aleppo is eventually rebuilt as a Jewish-majority city?
 
Guys Zionism is not a philosophy there would be no reason for a large enough number of Jews to come to the crusaders states
The crusaders have no reason to encourages thsi
We are just fabarcating reason to justify a large Jewish presence
 
I'd expect the Crusaders to murder and oppress Jews; they don't have the sheer demographic weight of Muslims, and the First Crusade started the unceasing of pogroms that drove Ashkenazim from the Rhine to Eastern Europe.
 
If the Levantine counts grow reasonably tolerant of the muslim population out of necessity (how many serf families would realistically move to the holy land to work it for these lords, aside from some men-at-arms who maybe retire and marry a local girl?
At the time we are talking the Christian population is still quite high , in coastal Syria, including what is now Lebanon, they are the majority and even in Palestine the Muslims are only a plurality with about a quarter of the population being estimated as being catholic in 1187 and obviously there are also many Orthodox. Given the better performance I'd expect ITTL the numbers to be even higher.

It is a bit more complicated as sources talk of islands of Christians implying there was not that much mixing and the Christians are definitely more urban than other groups. So the countryside might be Muslim with Christians clustered around cities and the coast.
 
If the Jews gets expelled in Europe like in OTL, I can see them migrating to Palestine or Egypt. The situation won't be much different, but I think the crusaders could tolerate them, or at least those that offer something to the table like economic, military or political expertise.

As history taught us, necessities always trumps ideals. Even if the crusaders were taught to dislike the Jews, they'll set that aside if it helps in running their newfound state.
 
I really don’t think a state built on Christian supremacy and who’s worldview and ideology revolve around the divine right of Christians to conquer and rule the holy land will be keen to have Jews immigrate to their nation. Traditionally Jews were seen as the people who killed the son of god etc. These people are not tolerant first world humanists and they will have views regarding the treatment of other religions that we would find totally abhorant. In fact it’s likely that Jews would be treated among the worst of all groups under crusader rule. The don’t have the numbers of the Muslims which means that no matter what they can’t be treated too brutally and they don’t just deny the divinity of Christ but actively dislike him as a false messiah.

It’s possible that the existing Jewish population could be tolerated to a degree but the idea that a state founded upon Christian supremacy and who derives the legitimacy of its rule through Christian supremacy will allow non Christian immigration at all let alone that from the group that Christians blamed for killing the son of god. If you were to try telling them about the economic benefits they would simply not care. People in this era cared deeply about religion and the idea that they would so massively compromise their beliefs for 30 pieces of silver And for a group that they would disdain is in my mind not at all plausible.
 
If the Jews gets expelled in Europe like in OTL, I can see them migrating to Palestine or Egypt. The situation won't be much different, but I think the crusaders could tolerate them, or at least those that offer something to the table like economic, military or political expertise.

As history taught us, necessities always trumps ideals. Even if the crusaders were taught to dislike the Jews, they'll set that aside if it helps in running their newfound state.
why would they go to palestine? or egypt? they have litterly no reason to go there, they have all the reason to go to the areas they went to otl and no reason to head to egypt or a christian fundmelinist state, also the reason @Ridcully stated above
 
Well, the "Jewish question" is an interesting one. We have some points to consider, as many posters have said:

1) The State of Israel will never come into existence. It's conditions IOTL were very specific and historically recent, so with a POD so far removed in time, it will, to put it simply, be completely butterflied away.

2) There will not be, at least not for some centuries down the line, barring a serious change in the Crusadist worldview, any sort of actual incentive from the Crusaders towards Jewish immigration into Palestine. On the contrary, I suspect that, for a long time, there would be more restrictions against Jews (related to acquisition of property and basic rights) than any other socio-ethnic groups - yes, worse even than that of the Muslims, because these ones are already entrenched as a demographic minority in the region. As @Wolttaire and @Ridcully put very well, the fundamental ethos of the Crusader State is one of Catholic Christian supremacy, and the Christian favoritism will be a fixture for many centuries to come, specially as they remain in contact with other politically-weak Christian cultures such as the Armenians, Georgians, Syrians and Copts or Ethiopians. In this regime, there is little to no space for the development of a significant Jewish political entity in the Levant.

3) That is not to say, on the other hand, that there will NOT be Jewish immigration of some kind. It will happen, of course, but it will be less fluid and more of a pilgrimage type than actual settlement. I can imagine that some Jewish communities already existent in the Muslim world would be interested in moving into Crusader territory, at least to live on its fringe territories, were the central Frankish power will be less significant - and probably the local Syriac Christians or Muslims will remain in power -, this means that they are exchanging "six for half-a-dozen". More complicated will be the situation of Jews coming from other regions of the world, such as al-Andalus and Europe itself; these will remain seen ever as "foreigners", without any communitarian relationship with the local groups, and this will likely thwart any immigration projects into the Crusader State.

Now that the subject has been brought up, I must anticipate that I'll be tackling the relationships between different religious groups in the Crusader State in just a few updates. Wait for it!
 
Although a few centuries earlier than OTL, I wonder if there will be attempts by the Vatican (or the Archbishop of Jerusalem) to negotiate a reunion between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Christian rites that now find themselves under Crusader dominion (or who may look to the Crusaders for protection, should persecutions against them begin in other lands). Basically, much like OTL's arrangement where the Church recognizes the Pope, theological differences are hammered out, but the local Rites are preserved.
 
It seems that while Crusader State has managed to establish itself somewhat, and is certainly in no danger of being swept into the sea by resurgent Muslim nations any time in the near future, is still dependant upon foreign assistance. I mean, from what has been written, they still depend upon Byzantines and occasional "Crusader" forces from Europe for military manpower, since their own manpower pool is still relatively limited, lacking loyal/Christian/Catholic population to be used in both times of peace and war. They need to push for greater immigration of Catholics to the area, to create a better balance to the Muslim and Ortodox population in the area. Although, it will be interesting to see just how economy of the area develops, especially once they conquer Egypt as well, putting them firmly in control of majority of trade Eastwards.
 
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