And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace
- Thread starter Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)
- Start date
Various authors have various butterfly policies since even one trader's profit could have an effect on a local market which in turn maybe changes the circumstances of a scenario just a little bit. Like if Temujin's father was never killed since his clan was in a more/less prosperous location due to market conditions. Or something like that at least.
It just depends on the author's preference (and justification if they so choose)
Temjuin father was killed because he killed a rival and there friend got anger and the silk route did not flow through Mongolia at the time genius khan pushed it north toward Mongolia so the trade routes would effect him that much over all Mongolia at the time was one of the most least imepoqnt and to a degree isolated part of the world to a degree
I'm not the author though. My butterfly is admittedly shitty but if Rdffiguera wishes to change Temujin's fate or at least change who takes his place, I'm sure there could be a good reason found.
how would this work the reason why the mongosl were successful were because of the reforms of temjunia I not sure they would be able to do anything outside of mongoilia if there united Mongolia in some form or a reform of he mongol system
Someone else mentioned it, but there were possible environmental reasons for why the expansion happened and also(heard it elsewhere) for why they were so successful, according to that view we would still see some expansion
What were the reasons? The environment reasons because the second gen his khan united he went a on a rampage then and plundered everywhere
I don't know the specifics, but AFAIK an environmental change put stress on various nomadic and non-nomadic society in and around the Steppes.
yes but then wouldn’t this changes be felt world wide in one way or another but I don’t remember there being any mentions of that
jocay
Banned
It would have to be the Nubian kingdoms. Specifically Makuria and Alodia. Any Crusader entity that arises in Egypt would out of necessity, at least initially, with the local magnates to cooperate against the threat of migrating Saracen tribes who might use Nubia as a base to raid the north. In OTL, the Arabs did not overwhelm Nubia until the 14-15th century but the early collapse of Fatimid Egypt to the Franks may prompt an early migration southward.
As for Ethiopia, maybe something akin to the aborted attempt at a dual Aragonese-Ethiopian marriage alliance would occur between Jerusalem and Lalibela? Of course that's more long-term. The Crusaders would need to first succeed in conquering Egypt before any of what I mentioned can be speculated.
In actuality quite the opposite -- whereas Turkic peoples OTL achieved a massive range from Uighurstan to Pannonia, the Mongols only stayed cohesive as an ethnos as the Kalmyks and then in Mongolia itself, with the dynastic identity of Borjigin proving more important for culturally Turkic people like Timur.
If they instead acted like the various Turkic peoples (and were, in turn, considered different but related groups in wider historiography), there would be more time to depopulate places like Transoxiana etc, and later invasions to replace and acculturate the surviving populations. In all likelihood, a "multi-Mongols" scenario lacks the sheer scale and speed of Genghis and his successors, but also provides a longer historical impact as a nomadic horde vis-a-vis OTL, where most of the Mongol age saw Mongol khanates acculturate to the conquered and create states.
Its also definitely less coherent, because OTL divisions like the Oirats and Khamag would be further exacerbated by distance and time away from each other, and even further by the lack of a unifying Genghis Khan figure to instill a sense of unity and historical purpose in the Mongol tumens.
Well, if Philip II can't have it and Aquitaine, then that just reverts the whole thing to the traditional royal policy, balancing the vassals.
Even though the crown and Aquitaine were usually on peaceful if not friendly term, I'd think that Phillip II could not allow to become his southern vassal to become too powerful by absorbing the County of Toulouse.
He already got the threat of a united Normandy-Anjou realm under the English King on the continent to deal with, and if he gets to deal with another such powerful vassal in the South, the Capetian monarchy would be reduced to the near powerless status it was at its beginning.
Unless of course you plan to butterfly either the death of William Adelin or the marriage of Mathilda with the Count of Anjou.
That would keep Anglo-Norman and Anjou holdings apart, and though English Kings would still be a pain to deal with, at least Anjou would stay as a buffer between Normandy and Aquitaine, though that wouldn't remove Phillip II's need to avoid Aquitaine absorbing Toulouse.
All in all, what has been called as the Southern Hundred Years War risks to become all the more interesting ITTL.
Yes, that's a good observation. I imagined that defeated Egyptians might make a run for the Red Sea instead of going south, considering the Nubians would be less than welcoming, but this indeed gives ideas for us to work regarding a possible "successor" Fatimid state lodged in between Upper Egypt and Makuria - even more as we work with the initial premise that the Crusaders, established in the Lower Egypt, will take some years to consolidate and initiate expeditions southward along the Nile Valley.
The Ethiopian contact is also something I intend to address in detail once we get there.
Excellent points. This is something I've never considered, indeed, but has a lot of potential. I suppose that their impact would be more perceived in Central Asia and in the Pontic Steppe, though, considering that their demographic base is relatively further in comparison to the Turkic peoples. I also imagine that the Mongols in any case would devote greater energy to establish themselves into the Far East than in Central Asia, but, in any case, you can be sure that we'll be returning to this point somewhere later.
Indeed. Phillip will most certainly continue his father's policy to expand the royal power and demesne at the expense of the great French magnates. Any debacle involving Aquitaine going into Provence will probably blow a powder keg, as weak as Royal France might appear to be, they will most certainly devote all their energy into preventing the formation of a mirror "Occitan" realm beyond the Loire.
I did not know the term "Southern Hundred Years War", that's a very interesting (even if symbolic) terminology that well represents the Occitan Medieval geopolitics.
LSCatilina made me know this term which covers the succession fight for Toulouse through the whole of the 12th century.
And you spoke of Provence, but Toulouse only got the marquisate of Provence through marriage, the county of Provence befell to the House of Barcelona and ultimately through it to Aragon. And of mention, these were still Imperial lands and would join France before 14th or 15th century I believe. For now, France's border is roughly along the Rhone river here.
Plus, the Capetian monarchy would have another reason to support the counts of Toulouse with the control of France only coast on the Mediterranean sea at the time.
And you spoke of Provence, but Toulouse only got the marquisate of Provence through marriage, the county of Provence befell to the House of Barcelona and ultimately through it to Aragon. And of mention, these were still Imperial lands and would join France before 14th or 15th century I believe. For now, France's border is roughly along the Rhone river here.
Plus, the Capetian monarchy would have another reason to support the counts of Toulouse with the control of France only coast on the Mediterranean sea at the time.
Hmm, If Crusader forces are able to take and maintain a significant presence on the Red sea what would this mean for the later Age of Exploration and the sail? And if the Crusades are going to wanked to infinity then maybe they could also get access to the Persian Gulf via Mesopotamia after TTL's Mongol Empire collapses leaves a pretty large power vacuum in the Region.; if that's the case the need to circumnavigate Africa gets even less.
Question; mqny here have speculated on either an Mongols or equivalent coming to power and the reprecussions this would spell for the Cusader states etc. Does the author plan to take this TL so far at all?
I do not think OTL Louis VII was intended for an ecclesiastic career by his father but is more likely who Louis himself felt called to an ecclesiastic life/career.
Will we see Buddhism as a rival of current Christianity? Maybe Mongols will convert to Buddhism and unify Asia and start a cold war between them and crusaders?
What are chances of them conquering India?
What are chances of them conquering India?
That's something we've discussed often, I suggest you look into previous posts. Butterflies will tell how things are going to unfold, but I do have plans to address the trans-oceanic exploration. But, again, I don't really intend for this to become a Crusader wank (TBH, it is one already, considering how poorly they fared after the late 12th Century), but Crusaders blobbing into Mesopotamia and the Persian Gulf perhaps might be a bit too far. Some trading outposts in India and Africa are more likely.
Yes, I do. Mongols will happen on schedule, but the circumstances and their patterns of invasion won't be exactly the same as OTL. From the 12th Century onward, the divergences will become more drastic.
Indeed, good point. It wouldn't be statesmanlike from Louis VI's part to put the second son in the church. Perhaps a third or fourth son would be directed to an ecclesiastic career. Then, again, ITTL what would be Louis VII will play a marginal role due to the survival of his brother.
That's something I've been thinking about. A wholesome conversion to Buddhism perhaps won't be so likely; IOTL the Mongols had affinity towards it, but confessional tolerance was a defining point of the Mongol policy (at least in the first generations of Khans). But an interesting idea nonetheless.
Mongols in India is also something in consideration, but it won't impact that much in the Near Eastern geopolitics until its (butterfly) effects can be felt, some two or three centuries after.