Interesting link!
Looks like my question is not original as they have an image of a long-barrelled 25mm tagged as a "What if?"
This is exactly what I was thinking except on the R35 and H35 chassis.....
Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3
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Interesting link!
Looks like my question is not original as they have an image of a long-barrelled 25mm tagged as a "What if?"
This is exactly what I was thinking except on the R35 and H35 chassis.....
GuildedAgeNostalgia
Gone Fishin'
1) OTL Weapon #1: The Mias/Moras Tank was a Italian mobile shield/Infantry support weapon invented in 1935 with the concept of supporting advancing infantry.
- It had enough frontal armor to protect it from small arms and heavy machine gun fire.
- It could be armed with either two 6.5mm machine guns or a 45mm mortar that a 5 round autoloader/magazine.
- It could be crewed by one person.
- Unfortunately the motorcycle engine it used was under powered and there wasn't a seat for the operator, meaning you had to walk at a slow pace while using it, making you a sitting duck. It couldn't be used effectively in rough or heavy forested terrain either.
tanks-encyclopedia.com
2) OTL Weapon #2: The Sd. Kfz. 2 aka "Kettenkrad was a German half-track motorcycle invented in 1939 for the use as a military utility tractor.
- Only needed a single operator.
- The front motorcycle wheel was optional, and could be steered just with the tracks.
- Top speed of 44mph and could pull some pretty heavy loads.
- Was only 3 feet wide, 4 feet tall, and about 8 feet long if you take off the motorcycle wheel, making it pretty small.
- Did relatively well in rough terrain.
en.wikipedia.org
3) ATL Weapon Design Idea: Let's say in 1943, the Italian Social Republic (German backed North Italian puppet state) decides to build itself a light, small, fast, and 1/2 man operated infantry support weapon in urban/mountainous environments by combining the Kettenkrad with Mias/Moras with some additional upgrades? If this were to happen, what design features would you guys suggest?
- It had enough frontal armor to protect it from small arms and heavy machine gun fire.
- It could be armed with either two 6.5mm machine guns or a 45mm mortar that a 5 round autoloader/magazine.
- It could be crewed by one person.
- Unfortunately the motorcycle engine it used was under powered and there wasn't a seat for the operator, meaning you had to walk at a slow pace while using it, making you a sitting duck. It couldn't be used effectively in rough or heavy forested terrain either.
Ansaldo MIAS/MORAS 1935 - Tank Encyclopedia
The Ansaldo MIAS and MORAS were two motorized mobile shields designed with the lessons of the First World War in mind.
tanks-encyclopedia.com
2) OTL Weapon #2: The Sd. Kfz. 2 aka "Kettenkrad was a German half-track motorcycle invented in 1939 for the use as a military utility tractor.
- Only needed a single operator.
- The front motorcycle wheel was optional, and could be steered just with the tracks.
- Top speed of 44mph and could pull some pretty heavy loads.
- Was only 3 feet wide, 4 feet tall, and about 8 feet long if you take off the motorcycle wheel, making it pretty small.
- Did relatively well in rough terrain.
Sd.Kfz. 2 - Wikipedia
3) ATL Weapon Design Idea: Let's say in 1943, the Italian Social Republic (German backed North Italian puppet state) decides to build itself a light, small, fast, and 1/2 man operated infantry support weapon in urban/mountainous environments by combining the Kettenkrad with Mias/Moras with some additional upgrades? If this were to happen, what design features would you guys suggest?
The Kettenkrad had room for another crewman in the back and I have made a several alt-ketts in the past, here are three of the least craziest designs.1) OTL Weapon #1: The Mias/Moras Tank was a Italian mobile shield/Infantry support weapon invented in 1935 with the concept of supporting advancing infantry.
- It had enough frontal armor to protect it from small arms and heavy machine gun fire.
- It could be armed with either two 6.5mm machine guns or a 45mm mortar that a 5 round autoloader/magazine.
- It could be crewed by one person.
- Unfortunately the motorcycle engine it used was under powered and there wasn't a seat for the operator, meaning you had to walk at a slow pace while using it, making you a sitting duck. It couldn't be used effectively in rough or heavy forested terrain either.
Ansaldo MIAS/MORAS 1935 - Tank Encyclopedia
The Ansaldo MIAS and MORAS were two motorized mobile shields designed with the lessons of the First World War in mind.
2) OTL Weapon #2: The Sd. Kfz. 2 aka "Kettenkrad was a German half-track motorcycle invented in 1939 for the use as a military utility tractor.
- Only needed a single operator.
- The front motorcycle wheel was optional, and could be steered just with the tracks.
- Top speed of 44mph and could pull some pretty heavy loads.
- Was only 3 feet wide, 4 feet tall, and about 8 feet long if you take off the motorcycle wheel, making it pretty small.
- Did relatively well in rough terrain.
Sd.Kfz. 2 - Wikipedia
3) ATL Weapon Design Idea: Let's say in 1943, the Italian Social Republic (German backed North Italian puppet state) decides to build itself a light, small, fast, and 1/2 man operated infantry support weapon in urban/mountainous environments by combining the Kettenkrad with Mias/Moras with some additional upgrades? If this were to happen, what design features would you guys suggest?
A bit too slow and under armored I think to be a real threat but fun to play around with.
I personally would rather go to war in a motorcycle with a sidecar with a light MG mount and that's only if I had to.
Driftless
Donor
^^^ There's a potential tie-in with the Neubaufahrzug and the Norske Truge..... Norway 1940 was the one operational deployment for the Neubaufahrzug (as far as I know). I had read somewhere that one of those tanks got mired in a swampy area near Andalnes.
Have your FT-17 Truge lead the German on a high-speed (7km/hr!!) chase into the swamp. Two go in, only one comes out....
Have your FT-17 Truge lead the German on a high-speed (7km/hr!!) chase into the swamp. Two go in, only one comes out....
I like it! 😂🤣😅^^^ There's a potential tie-in with the Neubaufahrzug and the Norske Truge..... Norway 1940 was the one operational deployment for the Neubaufahrzug (as far as I know). I had read somewhere that one of those tanks got mired in a swampy area near Andalnes.
Have your FT-17 Truge lead the German on a high-speed (7km/hr!!) chase into the swamp. Two go in, only one comes out....
Norwegian Truge Update:
The Meng FT-17 kit I am using as the basis for the Norwegian Truge conversion is a surprisingly complex little model that all goes together reasonably well. Having said that, the peeps at Meng obviously never considered that their offering would be sliced and diced into an AH whiff. With this in mind and reading up on fluid dynamics, quantum physics and seeking representation from the magic circle, I can confirm that the seemingly simple act of repositioning the track units 8.5mm has been on a par with juggling soot and herding cats!
Having measured everything up several times, cut the required adaptors, remeasured them again twice, I was satisfied that all was well with the world and brought forward the glue bottle. It was just about then that the universe imploded and all the laws of physics changed... What I ended up with were two track units the correct distance apart at the rear but diverging significantly at the front. I put the cursed object aside and retired to drown my sorrows. The next day, it didn't look quite so bad but... I knew it was not right... it would have to do... but it was not right... So, out came Mr Razor Saw and 1mm was removed from the front struts - everything reglued and now much happier.
Am halfway through the production of the 64 wooden cleats. But while work progresses, here are some more WIP pics. As an aside, the original idea of fitting M2 0.5" Brownings to some of the vehicles is looking like a non-starter as at 1.654m long the M2 is way too big for the diminutive turret of the FT-17/M1917 (pic attached)...
The Meng FT-17 kit I am using as the basis for the Norwegian Truge conversion is a surprisingly complex little model that all goes together reasonably well. Having said that, the peeps at Meng obviously never considered that their offering would be sliced and diced into an AH whiff. With this in mind and reading up on fluid dynamics, quantum physics and seeking representation from the magic circle, I can confirm that the seemingly simple act of repositioning the track units 8.5mm has been on a par with juggling soot and herding cats!
Having measured everything up several times, cut the required adaptors, remeasured them again twice, I was satisfied that all was well with the world and brought forward the glue bottle. It was just about then that the universe imploded and all the laws of physics changed... What I ended up with were two track units the correct distance apart at the rear but diverging significantly at the front. I put the cursed object aside and retired to drown my sorrows. The next day, it didn't look quite so bad but... I knew it was not right... it would have to do... but it was not right... So, out came Mr Razor Saw and 1mm was removed from the front struts - everything reglued and now much happier.
Am halfway through the production of the 64 wooden cleats. But while work progresses, here are some more WIP pics. As an aside, the original idea of fitting M2 0.5" Brownings to some of the vehicles is looking like a non-starter as at 1.654m long the M2 is way too big for the diminutive turret of the FT-17/M1917 (pic attached)...
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Garrison
Donor
And reality is somehow weirder:
Armed Military Scooter
A scooter armed with a 75mm cannon.... After World War II, there was little money for defense spending while the nations of Europe rebuilt t...
lml-vespa.blogspot.com
This is going to be a brilliant little model. When it's finished, wrapping the rear deck and engine compartment with a woolen blanket would be the icing on the cake.
Regarding the .50 fitment, I would've sworn it would work. A .50 has a 65in overall length, and a 45in barrel length - so about 20" hanging out in the back. The M1914 Hotchkiss installed on the FT has a 50in overall length and a 30in barrel - again, about 20" left over. Of course, I pulled the numbers from Wikipedia, so...
Sorry about not using metric, my brains are mushy today and I can't convert.
Driftless
Donor
^^^ FWIW, the OTL Norwegian Army HMG of 1930s-1940 was a Colt/Browning M29 in 7.92mm (water cooled). I don't know if that would help or hinder in this situation
From www.nuav.net
Of course, you could go with an armored "condom" over the water jacket, as the Aussies did on one iteration of the Sentinnel.....
From www.nuav.net
Of course, you could go with an armored "condom" over the water jacket, as the Aussies did on one iteration of the Sentinnel.....
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Thanks mate! 👍
To give any space for the commander to operate the M2 it would have to be mounted such that the ammunition feed would be almost in the mantlet. I will have a play with the kit’s M1914 Hotchkiss to see how it sits within the turret but the M2 just looks huge. 🤔
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One of the oldest asked questions about alternate AFV's is "what if the Tiger had sloped armour?" probably the first alternate history related question I myself wondered about as a kid.
I've made sloped Tigers before and here's another one.
The POD here is that the Germans suffer more casualties (including larger numbers of panzers) in a longer lasting invasion of France campaign.
The 'miracle' bounces achieved by the Covenanter's sloped turret resonate with the Germans ITTL and the Germans begin work on a sloped armour panzer with 8.8 gun in late 1940.
I originally wanted to use a turret from a Löwe (my early sloped Tigers looked a lot like Panthers on steroids) tank but I used a turret from an Indian panzer instead, just modified it a bit.
A late war Tiger Mk. II Special.
I've made sloped Tigers before and here's another one.
The POD here is that the Germans suffer more casualties (including larger numbers of panzers) in a longer lasting invasion of France campaign.
The 'miracle' bounces achieved by the Covenanter's sloped turret resonate with the Germans ITTL and the Germans begin work on a sloped armour panzer with 8.8 gun in late 1940.
I originally wanted to use a turret from a Löwe (my early sloped Tigers looked a lot like Panthers on steroids) tank but I used a turret from an Indian panzer instead, just modified it a bit.
A late war Tiger Mk. II Special.
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For the Norwegian Truge turret I suggest looking at the Vickers 0.5" mg which was fitted into the Mark IV light tank.
something like that might well be doable.
something like that might well be doable.
Ramontxo
Donor
About the no fitting M2 have you think of putting two of them in lateral sponsoons one at each side? Cocked, loaded and fired from the inside and giving them some Anti Aircraft capacity... Thanks a lot for your good work in this thread. Maybe one of this days I will post one of my mad ideas...
Edited to add that with interior feeding it would be difficult to fit one, forget two...
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