Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3

[GrahamB]

Ooh, I rather like the M37TD idea, the (I'm assuming) open top box of high-velocity goodies is indeed a very practical way to get a much larger gun on the Chaffee's little chassis (which is almost a rhyme).
I can readily see those deployed to Korea to key choke points along the highway and urban road networks.

You could even try a follow-up 90mm successor when someone started asking 'how big a gun can we get on this thing, and is it still air-lift capable?'

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Great to see the STuG return to the thread & the first image looks positively WH 40k esque.

The M 37 looks very plausible.

 

[Claymore]

Ooh, I rather like the M37TD idea, the (I'm assuming) open top box of high-velocity goodies is indeed a very practical way to get a much larger gun on the Chaffee's little chassis (which is almost a rhyme).
I can readily see those deployed to Korea to key choke points along the highway and urban road networks.

You could even try a follow-up 90mm successor when someone started asking 'how big a gun can we get on this thing, and is it still air-lift capable?'

Great to see the STuG return to the thread & the first image looks positively WH 40k esque.

The M 37 looks very plausible.

Thank you. The M37 was indeed an open topped box affair. Here is the original vehicle…

 

[GrahamB]

Oh yes, you'd only have to rig up some heavy buffers to take the recoil of the 76mm and the M37 could take it without issue.
Good of you to remove the 'pulpit' from the TD model, I doubt it would have improved things.

A lot of American TDs with open turrets would get roofs, I can see a M37 'gun carriage' getting retrofitted with a cover of stout wire mesh to handle urban debris (and a very interesting experiment in slatted armour) and convenient mount for camo nets. I see the presence of 'top cover bows' on the sides, I'm thinking of a much stouter set of frames.

And now I've already given myself the idea for a cartoon for Stars and Stripes, featuring a demonstration of the M37HVGC's (real name tbd) new "Urban Camouflage", which looks like a shed with a gun barrel sticking out of it.

 

[Claymore]

Oh yes, you'd only have to rig up some heavy buffers to take the recoil of the 76mm and the M37 could take it without issue.
Good of you to remove the 'pulpit' from the TD model, I doubt it would have improved things.

A lot of American TDs with open turrets would get roofs, I can see a M37 'gun carriage' getting retrofitted with a cover of stout wire mesh to handle urban debris (and a very interesting experiment in slatted armour) and convenient mount for camo nets. I see the presence of 'top cover bows' on the sides, I'm thinking of a much stouter set of frames.

And now I've already given myself the idea for a cartoon for Stars and Stripes, featuring a demonstration of the M37HVGC's (real name tbd) new "Urban Camouflage", which looks like a shed with a gun barrel sticking out of it.

🤣 I like it - particularly the shed! 😂

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

Well, here are today's doodles...

The first offering is perhaps what most people would traditionally think of a STuG version of the M24. Noting that the M24 is not a large vehicle, I had to be a little more creative than just slapping a STuG III casemate on top of the M24's running gear. That said, it is still not a large vehicle and the end product is, I suspect, not that practicable and/or viable. While I have created as much room as possible for the crew, the overhanging gun and front transmission would no doubt put an unhealthy strain on the front suspension. However, here it is (note I have used the US terminology of Tank Destroyer rather than STuG - and yes I am using the STuG in its AT role rather than its assault gun role)...

View attachment 691720

My second offering is more along the lines of what I think the US Army would actually have fielded if it had wanted to produce a cheap ersatz tank destroyer. It is based on the M37 which was itself a variant of the M24 used as a 105mm SPG. Not as sexy perhaps but far more plausible imho... I like it!

View attachment 691721

Looks like your TL-191 Union Barrel Buster

 

[AJE]

That said, it is still not a large vehicle and the end product is, I suspect, not that practicable and/or viable. While I have created as much room as possible for the crew, the overhanging gun and front transmission would no doubt put an unhealthy strain on the front suspension. However, here it is (note I have used the US terminology of Tank Destroyer rather than STuG - and yes I am using the STuG in its AT role rather than its assault gun role)...

It's bigger than the Jagdpanzer 38(t).

 

[Peebothuhlu]

Hello.

So, just a question.

We see modern all terrain vehicles (AMX-10RCR 105 mm Fire Support Vehicle, Centauro II 120 mm Main Gun System, M1296 Dragoon Armored Personnel Carrier, LAV-25, Patria AMV)

What could be done with the Sd.Kfz 8x8 in a similar 'Modernizing' type affair?

Am kind of looking for a 'cheap' based on the same family infantry support anti-armomr type vehicle.

A modern type take on the seeming 'Lash up' of plonking the short barreled 75mm on the Sd. Kfz hull that the German's did late war.

Cheers.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The M 24 STuG got the old grey matter firing and I started looking at other Chaffee upgrades. The French experimented by mixing and matching AMX 13 parts, but didn't see a large enough performance improvement to warrant introduction.

While the ultimate upgrade package for the type appears to have been conducted by the Norwegians that included installing a new engine, transmission, air filters, radio, infantry phone, main gun and laser range finder.

Looking at the Norwegian upgrade package and within a similar time frame (mid 60s). Is there anything we could add to the above upgrade package that could be optimised for jungle service? Perhaps air conditioning?

 

[wietze]

The M 24 STuG got the old grey matter firing and I started looking at other Chaffee upgrades. The French experimented by mixing and matching AMX 13 parts, but didn't see a large enough performance improvement to warrant introduction.

While the ultimate upgrade package for the type appears to have been conducted by the Norwegians that included installing a new engine, transmission, air filters, radio, infantry phone, main gun and laser range finder.

Looking at the Norwegian upgrade package and within a similar time frame (mid 60s). Is there anything we could add to the above upgrade package that could be optimised for jungle service? Perhaps air conditioning?

depends when the upgrade is, but would the AMX13 FL15 turret be an option (105mm gun)
this one:

 

[Not James Stockdale]

Hello.

So, just a question.

We see modern all terrain vehicles (AMX-10RCR 105 mm Fire Support Vehicle, Centauro II 120 mm Main Gun System, M1296 Dragoon Armored Personnel Carrier, LAV-25, Patria AMV)

What could be done with the Sd.Kfz 8x8 in a similar 'Modernizing' type affair?

Am kind of looking for a 'cheap' based on the same family infantry support anti-armomr type vehicle.

A modern type take on the seeming 'Lash up' of plonking the short barreled 75mm on the Sd. Kfz hull that the German's did late war.

Cheers.

For the sake of comparison, the SdKfz 234 is roughly the same size as an LAV-25. Weight for both as roughly 12 to 13 tons, depending on variant. Ultimately, the drawbacks of the Puma compared to more modern vehicles are the engine and the suspension. The Tatra 103 is a four-stroke diesel with greater displacement than the GM 6046 in the M4A2, but providing only about 200 horsepower. In terms of power per displacement, it is similar to the Kharkov V2. Before turbodiesels became common, four-stroke diesels are not a particularly good idea for armored vehicles purely because of their size. The issue with the suspension is the amount of volume that it takes up inboard of the wheels. The system uses four sets of leaf springs, each of which connects two wheels and is able to use upward force on one wheel to push down the other wheel, similar to a spring bogie system. The result is that the Puma has relatively little protected volume for its size.

As we know, armament options are a 20 mm auto cannon in an open turret, a 75 mm short gun in an open casemate, 75 mm anti-tank gun in an open casemate, or a 50 mm anti-tank gun in an enclosed turret. I'm like modern vehicles like the LAV-25, no Puma variants are capable of carrying dismounts. If you're looking for a better armament option in the post-war., My suggestion would be a 3-inch smoothbore low pressure cannon like the PAW 600 in a fully enclosed turret. HEAT warheads by the 1950s should be enough to defeat armor on almost any medium tank you encounter. I would not recommend keeping vehicles like these around beyond the 1960s.

 

[Claymore]

Looks like your TL-191 Union Barrel Buster

Does it? I don’t remember ever doing a TL-1919 Union Barrel Buster… That’s the problem with becoming a old fossil, my remembery isn’t as good as it used to be! Now, what was your question again? 🤔

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

Does it? I don’t remember ever doing a TL-1919 Union Barrel Buster… That’s the problem with becoming a old fossil, my remembery isn’t as good as it used to be! Now, what was your question again?

Not a question actually, but I am here to say that I am big fan of your works.

 

[cortz#9]

Does it? I don’t remember ever doing a TL-1919 Union Barrel Buster… That’s the problem with becoming a old fossil, my remembery isn’t as good as it used to be! Now, what was your question again? 🤔

I know you did some barrels for the Featherston’s Finest thread but I don’t recall you doing any barrel busters either.
Maybe he’s thinking of some of the ones I’ Posted here.

 

[Jim Smitty]

I know you did some barrels for the Featherston’s Finest thread but I don’t recall you doing any barrel busters either.
Maybe he’s thinking of some of the ones I’ Posted here.

I might have something in the works on TL-191 in the way distance future.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

I might have something in the works on TL-191 in the way distance future.

Is that the TL we spoke about ages ago?

 

[Jim Smitty]

Is that the TL we spoke about ages ago?

Yes it is.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

depends when the upgrade is, but would the AMX13 FL15 turret be an option (105mm gun)
this one:

Yes as @Claymore did a line drawing for me a few years ago, but I don't know if that was using a M 41 hull 🤷‍♂️.

 

[AJE]

The M 24 STuG got the old grey matter firing and I started looking at other Chaffee upgrades. The French experimented by mixing and matching AMX 13 parts, but didn't see a large enough performance improvement to warrant introduction.

While the ultimate upgrade package for the type appears to have been conducted by the Norwegians that included installing a new engine, transmission, air filters, radio, infantry phone, main gun and laser range finder.

Looking at the Norwegian upgrade package and within a similar time frame (mid 60s). Is there anything we could add to the above upgrade package that could be optimised for jungle service? Perhaps air conditioning?

Knowing the AMX-13 HARPON from Wargame: Red Dragon, you could probably mount unguided rocket launchers in place of the SS.11 missiles, like a T34 Calliope.

 

[Claymore]

The M 24 STuG got the old grey matter firing and I started looking at other Chaffee upgrades. The French experimented by mixing and matching AMX 13 parts, but didn't see a large enough performance improvement to warrant introduction.

While the ultimate upgrade package for the type appears to have been conducted by the Norwegians that included installing a new engine, transmission, air filters, radio, infantry phone, main gun and laser range finder.

Looking at the Norwegian upgrade package and within a similar time frame (mid 60s). Is there anything we could add to the above upgrade package that could be optimised for jungle service? Perhaps air conditioning?

Here is my take on a jungly M24 based on the Norwegian NM-116 variant Of the M24. This has taken the best part of the day to pull together as I first had to modernise a WW2 M24 to the NM-116 standard before adding the 'jangle variant' bits and pieces. I have taken a leaf out of the Australian Army's book and their use of the Matilda in jungle warfare. They had a distinct preference for their Matildas to be armed with the 3" support weapon rather than the 40mm 2pdr AT weapon as its HE capability was more useful in the close confines of the jungle environment. My offering carries a short-barrelled 105mm gun of Sherman and M37 fame for direct infantry support. My logic is that an ability to throw HE and cannister would be more use in jungle confines than high-velocity AT rounds. Having said that a typical troop would still have a number of standard 90mm NM-116 models. Apart from the 105mm gun my version has an air conditioning unit bolted onto the rear of the turret bustle and the hull MG (and 5th crew member) is deleted to make space for additional ammunition stowage. Enjoy...

Just for giggles I give you the same M24 NM-116 upgrade armed with the Ordnance BL 165mm (6.5 in) L9A1 Demolition Gun. Very WH-esque but doable given the low-velocity nature of the round. Make of it what you will...

The limiting factor for both would be the number of rounds that could be carried.